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Do I need a bigger anchor?

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/20/2010 : 13:46:25

I've had my C250 for three months, and gradually working over the systems and making it "my own." I just do daysailing, and have relatively little interest in anchoring. I select my weather conditions very carefully to avoid storms. Nevertheless, anchoring capability is an important safety feature.

It's only recently that I have looked over the ground tackle of this boat a little more closely. When I first surveyed the boat I was pleasantly surprised that it had not just one but two anchors tucked away in the anchor locker. After looking more closely I have some concerns over one of the chains being a little lightweight (one was a decent 5/16"x6', but the other a pretty light 7/32x6'). However, I just discovered that both anchors (which are essentially identical Danforth designs) may be a little undersized for the boat. They are both 8 lb. models similar to WM #439935:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=439935&langId=-1

The WM site says that this model is for 16'-24' boats, and I can imagine that a sailboat with its extra ballast, keel, and displacement (vs. similarly sized power boats) exerts even more drag that makes this anchor even more inadequate for a 25' boat.

Before I go out and buy yet another item in my long list, I was just wondering if you guys have any experience to suggest that this little 8 lb anchor would be sufficient, and if so under what conditions.

Note that the Delaware River has pretty strong tidal currents, which could also dictate a larger anchor.

Now that I think of it, I suspect that the combination of small chain and small anchor indicates that one of the previous owners probably pulled his anchor off of a previous smaller boat.

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/20/2010 20:42:09

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 14:50:54

We also have two anchors in the anchor locker, a 22lb claw with 25' of 5/16" chain and 270' of 3/8" 3-strand, and a 15lb danforth type with 6' of chain & 90' of 3/8" three strand. I have successfully anchored in our river in 45' of water with the danforth (2:1 scope), but can't recommend it (we'd wrapped a line around our prop, gave me enough time to get it unwrapped). I've yet to have used the claw, but have spent a few nights hanging on the danforth.

Your two sound undersized for your boat, I'd spend some time talking to other folks in your marina with similar sized boats & see what they recommend for your sailing grounds. Yours may be adequate for your purposes, but I'd feel better with an anchor sized for my boat.

FWIW, we actually have two more anchors, another 8lb danforth type that we use for the inflatable, and a Fortress FX-11 which we've yet to try. Neither is in the locker though.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 17:02:52

I have yet to have an issue with my 15ish ( can't remember if it is 14 or 16) pound Danforth on 12 feet of 5/16 chain, but I wouldn't trust an 8 pounder. Size up a Danforth or the equivalent holding power in what ever anchor is most popular in your area.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 18:36:17

Another forum recently had a long discussion on anchors. See
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=119154

Anyway reading that forum prompted me to read a lot of Internet material on the subject. So now I'm an expert, right ? So for what it's worth I found good test results for the Fortress FX-7 which is the right size for a Catalina 250. Cost is about $110. Also getting good reviews are the Rocna anchors.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 06/20/2010 18:39:31

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 19:59:21

I went and measured the anchor locker this evening. As a practical matter I want the anchor to fit there. The locker has molded-in notches for the stock and shank that are sized to perfectly fit a 13-14 lb. Danforth-type anchor. Most every boat in my marina that has a bow sprit has a Danforth mounted on it. The high-tech debates are interesting, but the Danforth is proven and economical. I'll check out the Practical Sailor archives before I buy, but I'll probably go with a Danforth.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/20/2010 19:59:51

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 20:37:23

In the meantime, if you get in a situation that requires you to anchor you can always use both of your 8lb Danforths together. Just be sure to set one at a time and in different areas (use a Y pattern) so they don't get fouled on each other.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 20:41:53

Geez, I thought that being a Practical Sailor subscriber would give me back issues. They want $10 to order their 2006 anchor reviews!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9085 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 06:48:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 Geez, I thought that being a Practical Sailor subscriber would give me back issues. They want $10 to order their 2006 anchor reviews!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I look at them at my local library.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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299 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 07:42:21

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 13:59:58

Hey, hurry and check out our Swap Meet section. There is a 25lb CRQ for sale. Good luck.
Steve A

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 14:45:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 I've had my C250 for three months, and gradually working over the systems and making it "my own." I just do daysailing, and have relatively little interest in anchoring. I select my weather conditions very carefully to avoid storms. Nevertheless, anchoring capability is an important safety feature.

It's only recently that I have looked over the ground tackle of this boat a little more closely. When I first surveyed the boat I was pleasantly surprised that it had not just one but two anchors tucked away in the anchor locker. After looking more closely I have some concerns over one of the chains being a little lightweight (one was a decent 5/16"x6', but the other a pretty light 7/32x6'). However, I just discovered that both anchors (which are essentially identical Danforth designs) may be a little undersized for the boat. They are both 8 lb. models similar to WM #439935:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=11151&partNumber=439935&langId=-1

The WM site says that this model is for 16'-24' boats, and I can imagine that a sailboat with its extra ballast, keel, and displacement (vs. similarly sized power boats) exerts even more drag that makes this anchor even more inadequate for a 25' boat.

Before I go out and buy yet another item in my long list, I was just wondering if you guys have any experience to suggest that this little 8 lb anchor would be sufficient, and if so under what conditions.

Note that the Delaware River has pretty strong tidal currents, which could also dictate a larger anchor.

Now that I think of it, I suspect that the combination of small chain and small anchor indicates that one of the previous owners probably pulled his anchor off of a previous smaller boat.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

before you go out and buy new gear, why don't you try what you have, keep the engine in idle and see if you drag?

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 14:47:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the link - it was very informative. While I would really like to economize on an anchor, since I have no plans to anchor for pleasure, for an emergency I want something with the greatest likelihood of setting and holding in a variety of conditions. Soft mud is especially important on the Delaware River, so it looks like I'll spring the extra $$ for a Fortress FX-11. It looks like it performed pretty spectacularly in that test, and can adjust to a higher angle for soft mud. Based in WM's table I could go down to an FX-7, but the 11 will still fit in my locker so I'll go with that.

The CQR is interesting, but a lot heavier. And I really want something that will fit into my locker which is designed for the Danforth form factor.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 before you go out and buy new gear, why don't you try what you have, keep the engine in idle and see if you drag?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a very sensible suggestion, but since I have no current plans to anchor in a location or conditions of my choosing, there are really no test conditions that I want to test. It's all about safety for me, and I want something that will be likely to hold under conditions that I would never want to test in. So I'll go for as much hold as I can fit in my locker.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/21/2010 14:50:33

vholmstrom
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USA
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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 15:37:26

I had a Fortress FX7 on my 20' Grady White, which I used on the Potomac River below Washington DC. The Fortress was a nice anchor, but it was difficult to set in the tidal Potomac when the current was running, even with 8' of chain. Sometimes it would take several attempts to get the fortress to set, while a heavier Danforth would set on the first try. Also with owners adding ballast in the bow areas of their 250s, a heavier 13 lb Danforth may be an advantage. One of the 8 lb anchors would make a nice lunch hook.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 15:58:17

Rick, I use a 13 lb. Danforth here on the Chesapeake, which I suppose has a similar bottom to the Delaware. It works fine for my uses. I have heard tales that the Delaware has stronger currents and maybe winds -- and I've never been anchored in a real blow.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 16:13:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by vholmstrom
 I had a Fortress FX7 on my 20' Grady White, which I used on the Potomac River below Washington DC. The Fortress was a nice anchor, but it was difficult to set in the tidal Potomac when the current was running, even with 8' of chain. Sometimes it would take several attempts to get the fortress to set, while a heavier Danforth would set on the first try. Also with owners adding ballast in the bow areas of their 250s, a heavier 13 lb Danforth may be an advantage. One of the 8 lb anchors would make a nice lunch hook.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good suggestions. I need as much ballast up there as I can get. I was going to offset the lighter anchor with more chain, which adds ballast and improves anchoring performance without being any harder to pull up than a steel Danforth.

Not sure what to make of your problems getting the Fortress to set. I suspect conditions of the bottom can have a huge effect on what fluke weight, shape, and sharpness are optimal.

By the way, I grew up in Ft. Washington, and my family had power boats on Piscataway Creek (and Herring Creek/Bay in Deale). I remember the Potomac was tidal, but never even noticed the currents. Not as much of an issue for power boats, plus I was younger and less aware.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/21/2010 18:25:45

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 18:59:18

I am also thinking about the Fortress FX-11. However, the stock is about an inch or two wider than the locker. I checked the web site and they discourage trimming the stock. I'm now looking at hanging the anchor on the bow pulpit. Or I'll go with the FX-7 since our lake does not pose anchoring challenges. The idea of the Fortress is that its milling, design and and sharp blades are superior to additional weight of other anchors. Judging by the tests I think they are right.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/21/2010 19:03:36

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 19:29:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 I am also thinking about the Fortress FX-11. However, the stock is about an inch or two wider than the locker...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmm, I don't know if the 2000 model has a narrower locker/liner, or if I mis-measured mine. But I could have sworn that mine was exactly 22" wide in the notched area, which exactly corresponds to the specs on the FX-11 (maybe too exactly). WM has a good return policy, so I'll probably just try it out. I'm not sure I would want to have a $168 anchor sitting out on the pulpit. I'll have a padlock on my anchor locker.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 19:35:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">design and and sharp blades are superior to additional weight of other anchors<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sometimes true, sometimes not. As Practical Sailor said: "All anchor tests should be taken with a large grain of salt.". Moving 100 feet can change which anchor has the best holding and local popularity should weigh heavily in the final decision. P/S also said that while a few of the newer designs appear to have a lot of promise, there are good reasons why Danforth and CQR are the standard to beat. Fortress certainly belongs in that same category - it sometimes outperforms the Danforth and sometimes not, suggesting that it is an equal. An important issue was confirmed a number of years ago when P/S compared Danforth to other brand "Danforth type" anchors - there can be a very big difference, not in a good way, with knock-offs.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 19:59:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">design and and sharp blades are superior to additional weight of other anchors<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sometimes true, sometimes not. As Practical Sailor said: "All anchor tests should be taken with a large grain of salt.". Moving 100 feet can change which anchor has the best holding and local popularity should weigh heavily in the final decision. P/S also said that while a few of the newer designs appear to have a lot of promise, there are good reasons why Danforth and CQR are the standard to beat. Fortress certainly belongs in that same category - it sometimes outperforms the Danforth and sometimes not, suggesting that it is an equal. An important issue was confirmed a number of years ago when P/S compared Danforth to other brand "Danforth type" anchors - there can be a very big difference, not in a good way, with knock-offs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Has anyone seen a review of the "Super Hooker" line of Danforth knock-offs? They are very reasonably priced. They are owned by Tie Down Engineering, who also owns the "genuine" Danforth line, so in a way they are knocking off their own product. I'm just wondering if this makes their knockoff any better than the others.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 05:37:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
I was going to offset the lighter anchor with more chain, which adds ballast and improves anchoring performance without being any harder to pull up than a steel Danforth.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You may be satisfied with the holding power in Delaware River currents with your 8 lb anchor if you add 10 ft of 3/8" BBB chain. I added that to my 13 lb Danforth with 75 ft of 3-ply rode and it made a difference in holding power for me compared to the previous 6 ft. of 1/4" chain. I use it on a bow roller, and that makes it simple to drop and to weigh anchor with all that chain.

(I also have more rode and a bridle on a 25 lb. CQR for emergency anchoring.)

Testing your ground tackle in the strong current you have under calm conditions will give you a good feel for the limits of its holding power at 15:1, 7:1, or 3:1 scope.

You can try it first with no changes in equipment, for free!

But while you are dragging the anchor across the Delaware River bottom in these tests, you may want to add a retrieval line and float, to avoid problems with possible snags.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 06:36:30

Before you go out and buy a new anchor, ask around if anyone in your area (such as the guys who do boat bottoms with scuba gear)also dives for lost anchors. Maybe you can find a deal on a salvaged one. we have a guy here who finds 10-20 anchors every summer that people lose. I picked up a good one for $20.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 13:05:11

Rhythm, check the measurements. Could be that the location of the notches precludes the overall length from fitting. I think you'll need to move the anchor back to where the little notches aren't. I hope I'm wrong but I think that is the case.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 06/24/2010 : 17:41:42

You may be interested in this: Reply #6: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4990.0.html

It includes a link to a very good new anchor technology assessment.

It explains how to size your anchor SYSTEM.

And there's always this: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/WestAdvisorView?langId=-1&storeId=11151&catalogId=10001&page=Selecting-the-Right-Anchor

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 06/24/2010 17:42:46

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/26/2010 : 09:13:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Rhythm, check the measurements. Could be that the location of the notches precludes the overall length from fitting. I think you'll need to move the anchor back to where the little notches aren't. I hope I'm wrong but I think that is the case.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I went back and re-measured. Here's a pic of what I have - I assume it's the same as yours:

<center>

</center>

The top of the compartment is 32"l x 22" w (at the notch), ~17" wide below the "shelf." Its depth varies, with a max of about 12" - not deep enough to fit many of the plow anchors that the condescending nut cases over on Sailnet are trying to coerce me into buying. The notch is about 6" forward of the back wall. So this allows about 26" for the shank length, which I will have to check carefully.

The anchor that is pictured is one of the 8 lb. Danforths.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/26/2010 09:14:52

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/26/2010 : 22:05:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Rhythm, check the measurements. Could be that the location of the notches precludes the overall length from fitting. I think you'll need to move the anchor back to where the little notches aren't. I hope I'm wrong but I think that is the case.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmm, I just found these specs on the Fortress site:

A=27"

<center>

</center>

Looks like the shank may be too long if they are measuring from the center of the stock. If it's from the very front end of the anchor, it might barely fit. I'll have to go back and measure precisely.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/26/2010 : 23:24:45

This may not be useful information since we have an older boat, but an FX-11 will fit, in the notches, if you cut about 2" off the cross bar. Also, a 22 lb plow will fit with 300' of rode with a danforth and 100' of rode. I keep the danforth rode in a nylon stuff sack, so it doesn't tangle with the claw's rode.

I see that your rode is coiled with several wraps, I'd suggest you loosely pile it in place, from the connection point in the locker towards the anchor. That way the rode runs free without assistance. If it's coiled, you first have to uncoil it to use it. Not the best circumstance to be in when you need it in a hurry

Edited by - delliottg on 06/26/2010 23:27:56

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