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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Tall rig vs. standard

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John J.
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USA
157 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/13/2002 : 16:47:51

Can anyone or should I say will someone please explain to me the difference between a tall and a standard rig, (other than the obvious difference that one is taller than the other). Is one preferable, advantages, disadvantages? The C25 I just prchased is a "tall rig". As you can probably infer from the question my sailing experience would be limited if I had any but I'm up to the adventure. Expect more highly technical questions like this in the future, I'm entering unfamiliar waters...........Thanks!!!

Edited by - john j. on 11/13/2002 16:51:23

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dgabel
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 17:18:00

I also own a tall rig, and have had it for three years.

I got it because when I was shopping Catalinas several years ago, I spoke with several Catalina owners and dealers and asked the same question. THe answer: On the North Shore of Long Island (where I am) the winds in the summer are often light and somewhat variable. If you want to get any speed out of your boat, then you should have a tall rig, which adds considerable sail area to the boat. If you're in an area where the winds are stronger and steadier (such as out at the East End of Long Island) then go for the standard rig.

That said, I saw a post on this board that said if you have a tall rig, get two sets of reef points in the sail, because one will only get you back down to the area of a standard rig mainsail.

Good luck and welcome.

Dave Gabel
Walkure
Fin Keel, Tall Rig, Sail 1484

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 17:18:49

John,

As you learn about sailing one of the things you will learn about is aspect ratio, i.e. the ratio of the luff of the sail to the foot of the sail. High aspect ratio boats point closer to the wind than low aspect ratio boats. And, are faster when going to weather.

Also, high aspect ratio boats, all else being equal, tend to more tender than low aspect ratio boats.

does this make sense to you?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 17:24:51

A picture is worth a thousand words. Tall rig will walk away from a standard rig in light air. However in higher wind you need to reef early. The boom on the tall rig sits about a foot lower leaving less head room in the cockpit for a bimini but it never bothered me. So here is the pic.<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d823b3127cce9e4e988f98170000001410" border=0>

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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John J.
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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 18:01:33

[quote]
John,

As you learn about sailing one of the things you will learn about is aspect ratio, i.e. the ratio of the luff of the sail to the foot of the sail. High aspect ratio boats point closer to the wind than low aspect ratio boats. And, are faster when going to weather.

Also, high aspect ratio boats, all else being equal, tend to more tender than low aspect ratio boats.

does this make sense to you?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Actually Don, if you responded in a language I was somewhat familiar with I might have a clue as to what you just said, but no, I really don't understand that. All joking aside though, I do appreciate the fact that you took the time to respond and try to help.Thanks. The winds are often light in my area, (southeast Indiana), so guess the tall rig will be good.

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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283 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 18:30:11

John,

I have a tall rig. Frankly, a standard would be better for me. The low boom is a pain. I live in NW Florida where biminis are not optional in the summer. As a result, I have to reef the main all summer. Usually, too much reef for the wind. I'll probably have a second set of reef points installed this winter so I can use more sail while still using the bimini.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 18:42:08

Question: On a tall rig boat, is the boom low enough to come in contact with a seated person of average height?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

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John J.
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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:12:53

Im 6'3", Will this be an inconvenience?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:14:53

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Question: On a tall rig boat, is the boom low enough to come in contact with a seated person of average height? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Yes, if said average person has good posture.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:16:05

"I'm 6'3", Will this be an inconvenience?"- John

Depends if your sailing partner knows how to turn the boat around and retreive you! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 11/13/2002 19:17:55

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:22:03

"Yes, if said average person has good posture." - Steve Milby

Uhmm, interesting. One must be sure to properly rig the preventer.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 19:33:43

Im sorry but there is no way the boom is a factor for a person sitting down even if they are 6'6".

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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dgabel
1st Mate

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75 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 20:44:41

Have to agree with Doug on this one. If you're seated in the cockpit of a tall rig boat, you'll never have a problem with the boom.

However, if you're standing, have a care. I speak from experience.

Dave Gabel
Sail 1484
Tall Rig, fin keel
Walkure

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2002 : 20:55:01

My wife is 5'6" and I'm 5'9". Our 8 yo daughter is nominally 4'4", but frequently bounds to heights of 6' or so. We have no problems with the low boom, so long as we are willing to sit out in the sun.

The real issue is gaining headroom for a functional Bimini, and there have been several threads on this site describing creative solutions to that problem. I haven't tackled the Bimini project yet, but I intend to make whatever rigging mods necessary to get full standing headroom under the bimini. My back gets enough of a workout during a day of sailing. I don't want to wreck it by having to crouch down to move around under a device supposedly designed for creature comfort. I like the idea of a shallow set of reefing points for comfortable sailing under full height bimini, and a frame that folds back for racing.

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/14/2002 : 09:56:16

John,

As I depressed the "Post New Reply" button, I had a feeling you might not know what I was talking about, so let me try to explain:

aspect ratio, i.e. the ratio of the luff of the sail to the foot of the sail. The luff of a sail is the forward edge of the sail, in the case of the main sail it is the edge of the sail along the mast. The foot of the sail is the edge of the sail along the boom. BTW the other edge is called the "leach".

The tall rig Catalina 25 has a higher aspect ratio than the standard rig. High aspect ratio boats point closer to the wind than low aspect ratio boats. And, are faster when going to weather. Why is this important? As you realize a sail boat cannot go directly into the wind. Additionally, there is an area around the wind that a sail boat cannot sail in. In our Jr. Sailing program we call this the "No go zone." If a standard rig boat can sail as close as 45 degrees to the wind, a tall rig boat might sail 40 degrees to the wind. Therefore, the tall rig boat will sail a shorter distance to get to a mark, a destination directly upwind.

As others have pointed out, there is also an advantage in low winds to the tall rig. It sails faster because there is more sail working to make the boat go. So what's the problem when the wind picks up and it becomes necessary to reduce sail?

Also, high aspect ratio boats, all else being equal, tend to more tender than low aspect ratio boats. Basically a more "tender" boat tips easier than the less "tender" boat. Not a major problem, until it effects sailing performance. As a boat tips that's called healing,, it spills wind and doesn't sail as fast as it does when it is nearly vertical. That's when it might become advantagous to reduce sail, reef sail and put up less jib. Also sailing boats have a theoritical hull speed, the theoritical maximum speed that the boat can sail. If a boat is sailing at it's hull speed, adding more sail will not increase the speed of the boat, and reducing sail may not slow down the speed of the boat, so many sailors reduce sail to make it easier to handle the boat, and make the sail more enjoyable for everyone on board. One of my sons and I were out one day this summer and the wind picked up and the baot was healing quite a bit, we sailing along in gusty wind around 5.5 knots gettting knocked down more than I felt comfortable with, so I rolled up some of the Jenny (I have a roller furler) from 155 to 130ish and osmepneo leveled off and continued sailing at 5.5.

does this make sense to you? I think what I'm saying is similar to others have said, but I'm sharing a little sailing theory for you. Hope this helps and hope you enjoy your boat. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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1774 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2002 : 10:39:56

does this make sense to you? - Don Peet

'Nice explanation, Don ... thanks for taking the time to post it.

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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jellyfish
Navigator

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USA
171 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2002 : 14:31:40

I am 6'1" and sail a tall rig, never had a problem with the boom.

Eric, I live on Navarre Beach, where in NW FLA do you live?

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eric.werkowitz
Captain

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USA
283 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2002 : 18:17:57

Dan,

I live in on Boggy Bayou in Niceville just outside Eglin AFB. Do you sail on the Gulf or in Santa Rosa sound?

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

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jellyfish
Navigator

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Response Posted - 11/15/2002 : 12:44:22

Eric, we usually sail the sound. being in Navarre we either head out to Pensacola Beach or down to Fort Walton. Sometimes take trip to Panama City or over to Orange Beach. we like to sail down to the Dock O Bay Bar in Fort Walton, spend the night and sail back home.

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John J.
Navigator

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157 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2002 : 17:04:15

Don, Thanks alot for that explanation, I assume you're not only a knowledgable sailor but also a quick typist.Yes, that makes a lot more sense,perfect sense, so thanks again. i can see that learning to sail also involves learning a brand new language. I thought a leech was a slimy parsasite and "luff" was something I like to make to my wife! Have patience!........Thanks.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2002 : 19:35:23

Hi John... You're right--it's a new language. Don't get too hung up on it, but make sure you learn the basic principles. You can't just point and drive... Do you have a friend experienced at sailing? How are you learning? If you haven't already, check the thread on "How To" books on the General Forum, and don't worry--you can't get into too much trouble on an Indiana lake in a C-25... ALthough when the Western sky turns greenish black, drop the sails, start the motor and get the hell home!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/15/2002 20:03:16

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/15/2002 20:09:41

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/16/2002 : 13:47:35

Hi John,

It sounds like you might be planning to sail at Brookville Lake. If that is so, there is a sizeable contingent of C-25 sailors at Brookville, myself included, who will be happy to help you learn to sail, and to learn about your boat, and to learn to race if you wish. If you haven't already done so, take a basic sailing course during the winter. Most of them only take 6-8 hours, and they're very inexpensive. They are taught by the US Coast Guard Aux. and by the US Power Squadron, and they allow you to think and talk about sailing when it is too cold to be on the boat. They are classroom courses, with no on-the-water instruction. I think both organizations have booths at the Cincinnati Boat Show, and you can find out about the courses there. The folks at Strictly Sail probably also know how to contact them.

I may have slightly overstated it when I said the boom could hit you when seated. But the reality is that the boom on a tall rig boat does not provide much clearance above a seated person. My boom might hang a bit lower than most, although my mainsail was measured at the 2001 C-25 Nationals and is racing-legal. The standard rig raises the boom by an additional foot, so there is far less risk of getting hit by it. You will love the added speed of the tall rig in the often light to moderate winds of Brookville Lake, but you have to be aware of the low boom. I've received some glancing blows from it, but never injured. In the real world, many of us rise 2-3 inches out of our seats when we tack the boat, especially in the excitement of racing, and whenever I have new crew on my boat, I always caution them to duck when we tack. The low boom of the tall rig is not a significant danger, but you have to pay attention to it and form different habits than you do on a standard rig boat.

I hope you'll look me up at Hanna Creek slip #8 next spring.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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John J.
Navigator

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Response Posted - 11/16/2002 : 15:53:37

Hi Steve, Your right, I'm going to keep the boat at Brookville and I'd like to take you up on that offer. I'll need all the help I can get. I've had many years of powerboating, even lived on one in the Keys yeas ago but I'll be the first to say I don't know squat about sailing. Always wanted to learn so I bought a boat. After spending some time on this forum I feel confident that the C25 was a good choice. People would'nt spend this much time doing this without having a "luff" affair with their boats. Please e-mail me at jdj1912@aol.com so we can meet this spring, Thanks.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2002 : 20:55:42

"Luff" affair... Hey, John has arrived! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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