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old topic, new sails

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/19/2010 : 21:25:18

OK, in the past I have longling read the posts about getting new sails. My trusty, rusty, blown out 86 model main decided to blow a head gasket yesterday. I looked at Catalina Direct, and Sail Warehouse. CD gave two choices (I like a narrow playing field) SW had 5 to choose from. Prices ranged from 550 to 1050 at SW, where CD was 839 and 884. Now CD lookes like they a lot more included, ie sail numbers insignia draft strip cunningham etc. The only one that had the cunningham were 895 and 1050.

I just went to ebay and saw Kelly-Hansen sail. Their catalina 25 sail is only 495. Has anyone used them?

This kind of makes me lean toward CD. Anyone have any imput on what they have done for new sails?

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider 5411
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - MattL on 07/19/2010 21:38:53

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2010 : 21:43:27

I bought a headsailfrom [url="http://www.nationalsail.com/"]National Sail[/url]. I was very pleased with the sale, the service and the sail.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/19/2010 21:43:55

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 05:20:53

National Sail and Sail Warehouse both sell Rolly Tasker sails. I've bought from both companies and had a good experience with both - no issues involving customer service however. They will most likely build it the way you want it, i.e. you should be able to get the basic OEM sail with a cunningham added for a small add'l fee. Read the descriptions carefully.
I'm also looking at Kelly for my next main, price looks good. There was a lengthy thread about them here some months ago during which issues over service problems were discussed. Perhaps they have resolved those matters by now.

Edited by - dmpilc on 07/20/2010 05:22:14

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 06:03:54

North, Doyle, Quantum.... In my opinion, stick with the big boys or have someone local make you one.

Here's why - a good sailmaker will talk to you about your usage and other specific needs. For example, if your headsail is on a furler but you frequently reef, some foam and some reinforcements will make that sail perform better under those conditions. Buying something off of the shelf is something best reserved for hard part.

BUT, if you are wanting to shoot in the dark, check out Bacon's in Annapolis online and buy a used sail. You will get pretty much the same performance from a sail that is used as you will from a sail that fits 14 different boats, which is what the stocking lofts frequently do. One size does not fit all and a really good headsail and main on a C25 will reduce heel to almost nothing and give you at least a knot or more. This is not a place to try to save money.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 07/20/2010 06:17:40

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 06:47:54

North Direct nee Cruising Direct is a sub of North - they usually have these on the shelf. http://nsdnn.northsails.com/nsd/tabid/17400/Default.aspx

Sobstad - was a big player until they lost their lawsuit to North. They still make some good stuff. http://www.sobstad.com/

Elliot Pattison is also a name that comes up a lot.

If you buy locally you can actually talk to the guy making the sail and know that he is there for any service down the road. Many places will go for a sail with you after your purchase, make trim suggestions based on the new cut you have, see issues immediately that they will fix...immediately. Help you tune your rig to get the most out of the sail. Store/clean/repair in the offseason, etc. IMO the service is worth the extra hundred - provided the service is really there.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 08:33:37

I have always been happy with products from CD including sails. They really know Catalinas and Ullman makes their sails.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 10:00:05

I have a North main and 110 which I bought 4 years ago. I was very happy with the service and the only issue I had was that the full batten pockets in the main had sizing (?) glue in them which has made it difficult to insert and remove the battens.

I also have a Rolly Tasker 150 which I am also satisfied with but decided, after using it for two years, that a 135 is more suitable for the C25, at least with my tall rig anyway. I had North recut the 150 to a 135 at the same time they made my 110 and main, and had both jibs set up for a furler. I don't have access to my records but I believe I got everything - modified 150, north main and jib, and a roller furler, for less than $1800. They also custom fit the furler to my headstay for free. It was a deal I couldn't pass up.

Again, the only issue I had with either company was the glue in the batten pockets with the North main. The rolly Tasker sails are cheaper - less expensive, than North, but I thought the North sail was a bit higher quality.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 11:33:07

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I also have a Rolly Tasker 150 which I am also satisfied with but decided, after using it for two years, that a 135 is more suitable for the C25<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I concur. Maybe now that I have more of a sailor as a partner I'll use it more but (at least when new and crisp) a 150 is a hand full, especially single handing.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 18:52:03

I've dealt with National and Ullman/Ventura and would most likely go back to Ullman first as they supply Catalina and CD, matched the price (which was the lowest I got at the time) from National AND discussed my sailing area, ability, desires to match the sail. Cutting through it though - all the names and approaches listed so far have worked for members -- if money is THE driver, National, Sail Warehouse and Ullman will work. If you desire the TLC that a local loft offers, that too will work and the delta is not really that big over the life of a sail.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 20:28:31

I bought new Quantum Main and 150 furling rig genoa sails 2 1/2 yrs ago. Great sails - So far..no stretch seems apparent but then again...they are only 2 1/2 yrs old.

Quantum (Annapolis) came down to my boat and discussed my type of sailing, frequency of sailing, mentioned various options and then took measurements. The sail details/design worked out of Annapolis and then sent electronically to their South Africa sail Shop to make the sails. The sails are made out of Challenge Dacron High Aspect sail matl. Each sail cost over $1000. My feeling is if you are going to get custom made sails and out of superior cloth matl less prone to stretching thru the years, you are going to pay over $1000 for each sail. Quantum and Mack sails make many of their Dacron sails out of Challenge High Aspect. The Challenge (USA) website provides the data on the 4 grades of Dacron sail cloth: Marblehead (highest quality), then High Aspect which is a close second, then High Modulus which many of the stock sails are made from and then Performance Grade(lowest Quality) which a number of sail mfrs also use. In the US many sailmakers use Challenge sail cloth. North uses their propietary sail cloth matl and I believe Doyle uses a European sail cloth material.

I suspect that sails sold in the $400 - $600 bracket are made using the Dacron matl that is more prone to stretching. It doesn't mean they will stretch from day one...Just that like anything there are different grades of matls at different costs. Dacron, overall, will wear for what seems forever but depending on sail cloth matl, frequency of use and wind conditions used over it's life will begin to stretch after a few years - Some will stretch more than others depending primarily on sail cloth and I am sure quality of sailmaker factors into this as well. However, there are so many on this Forum that after buying new sails from whatever mfr seem to express satisfaction with them that it may be hard to justify why spend more for sails when a good sail can be had for half the cost of others....and many have been satisfied. Chances are you will be happy with whatever sail you get if it is from a sailmaker with a fine reputation and there seems to be plenty sailmakers out there with fine reputations and supporters.

So.......maybe there is no wrong decision if going with a reputable sailmaker. It may come down to a number of right decisions depending on what dough you are willing to spend. But if you have a fetish over stretch or race with non-mylar sails, then just be aware that there are differences in sail cloth which probably has something to do with some of the cost differences. A popular mfr like Quantum, Doyle and North will also have some cost run-up just based on their reputation even though there are many other fine sailmakers out there.

I guess that is about as neutral as I can get on this subject.

Edited by - OLarryR on 07/20/2010 20:32:32

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2010 : 01:36:45

When I bought my C25 new, I bought a North dacron racing mainsail, 110% jib and 155% genoa. They were made of Bainbridge sailcloth, which was, at that time, the best dacron sailcloth available. They had outstanding shape, and were all very fast. Except for the mainsail, they were still good sails 23 years later. I bought a new 150% Rolly Tasker genoa and a mainsail with racing options. The mainsail had good shape and was competitive on the race course, but the genoa was not satisfactory at all. The main problem was that it was cut too flat, and lacked power. It was so bad that I only used it in high winds, and almost always used my 23 year old North genoa in the usual moderate winds on my lake. I don't know what brand of sailcloth Rolly Tasker used, but IMHO it wasn't nearly the quality of cloth in the old North sails.

I bought the Rolly Taskers because I needed to economize at that time in my life. If I knew then what I know now, I would have still bought the mainsail, but not the genoa.

My point is that there is a big difference between sails made by the well respected sailmakers and the off brands. Quality is usually consistent with the major sailmakers, but that isn't always so with the off brands. You can't be sure whether you'll get a good, serviceable sail, and, if you get a bad sail, it's virtually worthless.

Unless you're financially pinched, as I was when I bought my replacement sails, I recommend you pay a little more and buy sails from the major sailmakers with long-established reputations.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2010 : 03:42:00

Agree with Steve. Just wanted to add that Bainbridge and Challenge have a connection of sorts. Bob Bainbridge owns Challenge. I am not sure if Challenge is now the main sailcloth mfr or if both still exist. Sometime in past history, Bob bainbridge formed Challenge and Challenge is what I see mentioned on a number of sailmakers websites.

The thing I guess that bothers me and I guess it's my slant toward looking at the technical attributes on things even perhaps when it doesn't matter that much...just that it's part of my materialistic makeup....when looking at sailmkaers websites, it confounds me that some provide no details of the sail cloth matl...it's like it's a non-entity but that is what you are buying. Some sailmakers would rather just express the quality of their sails in terms of "excellent" performance, etc and not tell you what you are buying. Even if you do not want to get into the nitty gritty details of the data behind the sailcloth matls, it would seem that when comparing cost of sails, one should at least be able to determine easily from looking at a sailmakers website what sailcloth he makes his sails out of so you can compare to some degree what you are buying if from supposedly two or three equally reputable sailmakers. When you buy a PC, don't you compare some of the attributes of what's inside the box, what size hard drive it has, RAM, the size and resolution of the monitor...or do you just go buy what the marketing hype indicates - It's an excellent PC ! ?

At least once you know how to compare one sail against another, then you can go with the less expensive one that has many indicating they like the sails over many years. You are at least aware of what you are buying and are able to assess what others experiences were so you could make a determination. I guess what exasperates me most is the sailmaker websites that do not provide a hint of what sailcloth and grade they use and yet that is what you are buying. A number of sailmakers will make sails out of a number of sail cloth grades probably to be competitive...and so perhaps that info you get when you talk direct with them. But there are many websites where you order a stock sail electronically off the shelf and there is no hint of what is being furnished. What if they had to cut costs in recent years and decided to furnish all 2010 sails in a lower grade sailcloth ...how would you know. Then again, reading all past postings on sails thru the years on this Forum, those happy with sails no matter what they paid are probably 99% compared to just a handful that have ever reported unsatisfactory experiences. So...maybe this does not matter that much...and it's only me with this concern about how sailmkaers advertise their products on the web ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 07/21/2010 03:45:39

MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 23:49:59

Still waiting for some quotes. In the mean time a friend has given me the use of an extra sail he has. He got his Mac 26 from a guy that loves them and puts them together for racers. It came with a few sets of sails, one is a new, from when he got it, oversized racer. It has a bolt rope and a loose foot, raised to the top it is about a foot or more lower than my standard sail. I had to take off all my outhaul except for a single at the end of the boom because it goes all the way there, so it is quite a bit wider at the bottom. Sailed with it today. This is the first time I've had a non blown out old sail on the boat. Not quite class legal and it has a giant "M" on it. The friend that helped me set it says thats cool the M stands for Matt.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2010 : 04:32:46

gary Swenson at the Ullman ventura loft is the only way to go in my opinion. If you order from him he will make you an anchor riding sail for less than 100 if you order at the same time.
Both of my old 25's sails were from him. full batten loose footed main and 135 jib.
I had him build a 135 tri radial headsail for my Ericson 32 and it is very, very nice. When I buy an Ericson 38 guesse who will build my sails.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 07/24/2010 : 08:18:52

Completely agree regarding Gary Swenson and Ullman -- a fantastic person and loft -- and I'm 3,000 miles away!

Edited by - on

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