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mountainsailor101
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/20/2010 : 17:55:01

What's the cause of an unstoppable round up (no matter how much you try to fall off)? Was a fairly stiff breeze... kinda gusty. Basically, I'd start to heel more on a gust and then couldn't really get response from the rudder. I felt like my keel was showing... leeward rail almost buried. Fun, but frustrating. Too much sail maybe? Pointing to high? Un-reefed main, partially furled jib.

Edited by - mountainsailor101 on 07/20/2010 18:02:47

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 18:27:36

Reef the main or ease the mainsheet. Play it for the puffs letting out whenever teh baot hints at rounding. Pretend you are in a dinghy avoiding a capsize.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 18:28:00

As I undertand rounding up, it's the boats reaction to being overwhelmed by the wind coupled with the loss of rudder response. The boat gets heeled to the point that the wind is no longer effectively moving the boat but rather just spills off the top of the sail. Excessive heeling also has the effect of causing the rudder to actually push up and down on the water rather than side to side. That causes you to lose rudder response and the boat will naturally point to the wind.

It sounds like you needed a reef or two. How much headsail did you have up? Putting the rail in the water doesn't alsways result in optimum speed. In fact, in most cases, it probably has the opposite effect.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 18:57:52

With a little practice you can do a "controlled" roundup. As soon as heeling becomes excessive, dump the mainsheet (you already have a hand on the mainsheet, right?) and immediately haul it back in. The boat will come more upright but the bow will still move to weather but under control. If you are racing this will get you a boat length higher which is delightful!

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 19:42:45

Yeah Derek - thats what I was trying to say, but didn't. It took a long tim efor me to figure out how to do that.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2010 : 20:13:24

Tell us a few things about your boat--the rig, keel, jib size (%), and number of reef points. Were you rounding up right after a tack or in some other situation where you had very little speed on?

Generally, it's best to reef the main before the jib... The jib provides much more drive relative to its heeling force (because it has more area down lower), and it counteracts the weather helm that causes your roundup. As evidence, if you haven't tried it, you'll find the boat sails much better on the jib alone than the main alone. On blustery, "black-and-white water" days, we often sailed on our 130 genny alone--it was comfortable and pleasantly quick!

In strong and gusty winds, it also helps to move the genoa sheet cars back on the tracks so that the sheet flattens the lower section of the sail and allows the top to twist off. You get better windward performance with less heel. (With cars moved forward, the sheet pulls down more on the leach, allowing the sail to be fuller with less twist--the better shape for light air.) The "neutral" position is the one that makes the line of the sheet intersect the forestay at a right angle.

For the main in heavy air, move your traveler "down" to leeward and use any other controls to flatten the sail--a vang, cunningham, and/or outhaul... That'll reduce the weather helm forces that are trying to round you up, and allow you to point more efficiently into a stiff breeze. When you tack, don't yank the mainsheet in hard right away--ease it a little and let the boat build some speed before you point up and harden the mainsheet. Control comes from speed.

John is right about the rudder losing its turning force... its partly because of the angle of the blade under excessive heel (which in airplane terms is turning from a rudder into a flap), and also because it gets lifted partly out of the water. Heeling is fun, but flatter is faster.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/20/2010 20:19:23

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2010 : 04:00:23

Practice letting your main sheet out to varying degrees ( till it starts flapping ) . You are holding to much pressure on the mainsail leech or trailing edge of the mainsail. Let the main sheet out and you balance out the boat more.
Also practice turning up into the wind to depower the boat ( pinching ) with each gust.
I have the same problems, the inland lake I sail on has few constant breezes, like a sea breeze, or the land breeze we get at the beach, so I often go out sailing on the storm fronts as they come through. The lake also has high ground around it so we end up with a lot of shifting winds.

Learn to sail with a the main out more or get knocked down ( fat chance with this heavy boat) or rounded up ( somebody is having fun ).

Also like they said above, reef. I found my boat likes reefing so much ( in my conditions ), I'm gonna buy a smaller main next time I have the round tuit.

Anyhoo.. that's what all the fun is, setting those sails.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2010 : 04:55:01

The boat is overpowered. I reef my C250 at 12 kts. Second reef at 15 kts. C-25s, based on what I read here in this forum, can take a bit more wind before needing the reef. These boats want to sail flat. If you are heeled over more than 15 degrees, then you're just sliding sideways, your rudder is turned like a big anchor behind the boat and the boat will fight you to round up. You're also going slow. When you're trimmed properly, the boat will sail itself and go fast. Reef the main first, since the main causes windhelm.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2010 : 17:23:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mountainsailor101
 What's the cause of an unstoppable round up (no matter how much you try to fall off)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You do not fall off in a gust, you sheet out and head up. This guy is not rounding up, he is still holding a course, it may be a bit higher than he wants but he is still thundering to weather.
Sheet out to stand up, head up to stay up, sheet back in to giddy up.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 07:34:01

Frank,

I love that photo so much I have it on my computer desktop.

I agree 100% with your comment. With the proper sail trim and helm reaction, a potentialy catastrophic round-up can become a helping hand to windward with the benefit increased speed. The helmsman must recognize the "puff" for what it is and take advantage of it however. In additon to sail trim set to conditions, dedicated observaton of wind conditions as they evolve and quick reaction to change by the helmsman are essential.

In my opinion, falling off could potentially cause a far worse condition for the unwary helmsman, an accidental jibe.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 07:46:18

Wow, I LOVE this picture, too. Rudder is in line with the path of the boat. Lots of backstay. Traveler has been dropped a bit to depower the main. The bottom is clean. The jib sheet is actually IN the water. This is very impressive. I have NEVER been able to sail Windsong like this with any level of performance - it would be just a lot of leeway and windhelm.

Edited by - windsong on 07/22/2010 07:50:03

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 08:55:46

Frank - is that pic of "Kansas Twister" from the Cheney nationals?

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 10:29:25

If I remember correctly there was a lot of gungle and some window sailing done in that race. Mike you will never see your 250 at that angle under positive control. The 250 will roundup at 33 degrees of heal unless you double the size of your rudder. There just isn't enough rudder to hold it above that angle. That is the first test we did on my boat after we got it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 10:40:08

He's just gotta get that one huge hunk of rail meat out on the rail--or at least on the windward side of the coachroof!

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 12:56:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 He's just gotta get that one huge hunk of rail meat out on the rail--or at least on the windward side of the coachroof!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly what I was thinking. If those guys actually hiked they'd be in better shape.

Mountain Sailor,

If you're not racing and you're getting over powered, like Stinpotter said, try sailing under head sail alone. I easily get up to hull speed with my 130 and it's much more comfortable for everyone on board. . If the wind is 15 knts or over, I start out head sail alone, and then if I need to I'll uncover and raise the main. If you are racing, ease the traveler and play the puffs. Last time I raced I shipped water in the cockpit over the coaming. You've got to love wet winches.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 13:39:06

Yes that is Kansas Twister in club race before the Nationals.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2010 : 13:45:03

Here is the full shot, note the tell tales on the leech of the main, the look like pencils!

Edited by - pastmember on 07/22/2010 13:47:09

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 07:04:42

Also note that the camera is tipped--they're heeled even further than it first appears here.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/23/2010 07:06:43

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 07:24:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Here is the full shot, note the tell tales on the leech of the main, the look like pencils!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And the telltales on the Genoa are vertical. What about the luff of the main?

I just can't believe that is the most efficient angle to sail. I'd bet he'd be just as fast without all the drama if he stood her up a bit.

Edited by - on

mountainsailor101
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 07:30:21

Thanks for all the responses. I see in that pic that they are fully powered, but by the same token have 3 crew to manage everything... I was solo. I'm guessing my heel angle was close to theirs (45 deg.), rail was wet. I see now that my biggest issue, or 2nd biggest behind being over-powered, was not having either the jibsheet or the mainsheet in my hand.... allowing me to dump a little wind and avoid the excessive heel followed quickly by the roundup. I actually started on a windsurfer in the same lake... you either dump some wind on the gusts or you're jettisoned into the water. Is anyone tending the mainsheet? ... doesn't look like it... but from the comments it seems like the mainsheet would be more important. Yes/NO ? I for some reason thought that sailing with jib alone was kind of a lazy man's tactic... and wouldn't you lose your ability to point a little higher?... or lose balance? I've never had any real instruction.. I just kinda do what makes the boat go faster. A little of this a little of that... a glance at the GPS... another couple of tenths. Did you say "rail meat" or "whale meat" ? He's looking straight down at the water asking himself why he volunteered to crew.

Edited by - mountainsailor101 on 07/23/2010 08:32:23

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 08:34:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mountainsailor101
 Thanks for all the responses. I see in that pic that they are fully powered, but by the same token have 3 crew to manage the everything... I was solo. I'm guessing my heel angle was close to theirs (45 deg.), rail was wet. I see now that my biggest issue, or 2nd biggest behind being over-powered, was not having either the jibsheet or the mainsheet in my hand.... allowing me to dump a little wind and avoid the excessive heel followed quickly by the roundup. I actually started on a windsurfer in the same lake... you either dump some wind on the gusts or you're jettisoned into the water. Is anyone tending the mainsheet? ... doesn't look like it... but from the comments it seems like the mainsheet would be more important. Yes/NO ? I for some reason thought that sailing with jib alone was kind of a lazy man's tactic... and wouldn't you lose your ability to point a little higher?... or lose balance? I've never had any real instruction.. I just kinda do what makes the boat go faster. A little of this a little of that... a glance at the GPS... another couple of tenths. Did you say "rail meat" or "whale meat" ? He's looking straight down at the water asking himself why he volunteered to crew.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The main sail provides the most heel with the least power. Sailing with jib alone is real easy for me as I have roller furling but I have no problem getting to hull speed in a nice breeze. So yeah it's lazy but if you're not racing why not?

This by the way, is the proper "stance" for rail meat.

You can see we have quite a good heel going on here, even with 4 people as rail meat.(I know the head sail needs to be skirted and trimmed, I think we were in the process of that when this pic was taken)

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 09:30:45

If you adjust the horizon line of the photo (I tipped my monitor screen), the big guy on the cabin top is way past the center of mass...

Edited by - on

mountainsailor101
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 09:59:19

Exactly... he's contributing to the heel rather than counter-acting it... lol.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 12:36:09

I think I like this one best from Frank, the lake is so shallow and turbulent;

But of course I this Photo of how a rail hanger is supposed to act from Brooke Wilson is best overall

Edited by - DaveR on 07/23/2010 12:38:30

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 15:18:49

Note that the lead boat is reefed, while the trailing boat is not.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2010 : 15:42:10

The C25 will round up at 45 degrees of heel. When the side deck is under. You can feel it coming - the rudder starts to roar.

The best thing to do is dump the main and head up (that is counter intuitive). Then sheet back in when the gust is over. This is nothing to fear so long as you have the mainsheet in your hand. Backstay on, outhaul on, vang on, jib cars back, hike, steer with the hiking stick, and go have fun. If you get to the point where you are dumping constantly, then it is time to reef.

I feel the boat performs best at 20 degrees of heel.

You have not yet experienced a "round down" that is a round up out of control when sailing down wind or on a broad reach. Let me tell you that is a whole lot of fun. Also a spinnaker knockdown. Can't control the boat, can't dump spin, and if it fills with water it won't come back up. You need to ease and head down when you feel this coming!

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