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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Rudder lost 10 miles offshore (NEW: pic added)

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 11:53:43

<< Having a drogue (or two) on board suddenly seems like a requirement. >>

Yepper.. I always kept 2 on board any boat I went offshore with.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 12:29:27

In a pinch a bucket or canvas tool carier can be used as a drogue. Of course you may have to punch a bunch of holes in the bottom with the fid on your rigging knife.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 14:06:09

WRT to heaving to without a rudder - I have not tried that, but Ihave hove to without a mainsail. Whatever that is worth.

WRT motoring in heavy seas - When we lost our rudder last summer, we motored about 2 miles to the nearest dock. All sails lowered, and a good wind. Waves maybe 2 feet. Not big enough to be deadly, but enough to push us around. With the 9.9 moving us at 5.5 knots we were able to steer and manoeuvre through a boulder field on the way to safety. Not nearly as nimble as with the rudder, but good enough to get us where we needed to be. This was in a fin keel C-25.

Edited by - on

jaclasch
Navigator

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USA
104 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 18:01:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 WRT to heaving to without a rudder - I have not tried that, but Ihave hove to without a mainsail. Whatever that is worth.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I thought heaving-to required backwinding the jib and tying off the tiller (with rudder attached) to the opposite side so the jib and rudder work against each other. Was I misinformed?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 18:48:30

I normally heave-to without the main, but it would be pretty hard to do without the rudder to turn you across the wind when you back down

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cks
Navigator

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126 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 18:50:53

If catalina won't take responsibilty and investigate why this potential life-threatening situation happened on a one year old coastal cruiser, they should get out of business of building these boats. 20knot winds and 4 foot chop is something these boats should handle without a sweat (I don't know about the crew). If this was a either a neglected 30 year old boat or one that was raced or handled hard for years, i would understand. This to me is clearly a catalina factory or supplier mistake and to say that somehow this was the owner's fault would be a penny-wise and pound foolish mistake. I'd be on the phone to catalina ASAP to tell them about this and see what they say. At least if this happens on other boats, it's on record that they knew about this potential problem on these boats.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 19:55:40

About the outboard, would you describe the make model and shaft length.

Thanks.

Glad you got back safely, my admiral would probably insist that we carry a spare rudder and pintle set!

Paul

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 20:14:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 About the outboard, would you describe the make model and shaft length.

Thanks.

Glad you got back safely, my admiral would probably insist that we carry a spare rudder and pintle set!

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Paul, I am assuming you are talking to me. Maybe I have a big head. Our OB is juat the factory original Johnson 9.9HP longshaft on a garhauer bracket on the transom. Nothing fancy, but it seems to work well for pushing the boat around in tight corners.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2010 : 20:21:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jaclasch
 I thought heaving-to required backwinding the jib and tying off the tiller (with rudder attached) to the opposite side so the jib and rudder work against each other. Was I misinformed?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No... But heaving to is a somewhat loosely-defined process, the objective of which is to slow the boat and hold it in a steady position relative to the wind and seas--not necessarily to "stop" it. It will then move as much or more to leeward as forwward. The real objective is a self-stabilizing position relative to the wind, so everyone can relax (so to speak).

A backwinded jib is perhaps the most common component of heaving to. The main, somewhat eased, with the tiller tied to leeward (or wheel locked to windward), causes the boat to alternate between being powered backwards by the jib and then forward by the main. That balance is something each sailor has to discover on his own boat, and it can vary with wind conditions. With the right balance, the bow stays somewhat into the seas so the boat doesn't roll violently or accelerate down-sea. Every skipper should try it in a variety of conditions so he's ready when the $h!+ hits the fan.

What I was inquiring or speculating on was the possibility that a boat could be made stable in the same way without a serviceable rudder--maybe with the main sheeted in harder... (?) This could make it a lot easier for the crew to figure out what to do next, without having to deal with a boat that wants to jibe, broach, or whatever. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that the outboard could control the boat in rough conditions without a rudder. Obviously, an inboard is helpless without a rudder. So, given that with either we might need to wait for assistance, can we heave to somehow to make the wait safe and relatively comfortable, or at least allow us to figure out a Plan B (like a cabin hatch board tied to a boat hook)?

BTW, this thread is a great commercial for "unlimited towing" from TowboatUS or Sea Tow! I have it--hope to never need it--won't hesitate to use it. (Obviously, I can no longer sail home.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/06/2010 20:34:00

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 09:39:45

Here's a pic of the failed pintle.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4306 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 09:49:24

Hard to tell for sure but it looks like the section above the holemight have been cracked for awhile. Notice along the fracture the metal appears to be darker than the lower section indicating the water and weather have had time to work on that section vs the shinier (new) fracture.

It's interesting that the top corner is rounded off too.

It also might be the way the light is hitting the pintle too.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 10:05:59

Frank Butler needs to see that picture, with a reminder it's from one of his 2009 boats.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 12:19:50

Measure the thickness of the rudder at the pintle mounting location. It should be 1 1/2" thick. I tried to get a new balanced rudder from Catalina and ended up returning both rudders they sent me due to build flaws. The first had a rudder thickness well under 1 1/2" that the pintle requires. Squeezing the pintle to fit a lesser thickness rudder could contribute to a failure.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/08/2010 17:34:38

vholmstrom
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 12:43:50

Does Catalina monitor or ever post replies to threads on this web site? It would be nice to know they are looking at this potential problem, testing their components, and working on a solution if warranted. I am especially interested since my 2011 C250WK is currently being built.

Vic

Edited by - on

vholmstrom
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 13:02:36

I took the liberty of sending the following email to Ron Frisosky who is the Catalina area representative I have talked to during the construction of my boat. Maybe he will check it out and post something here. Hope I didn't offend anyone in doing so.

Ron,

There is a thread on the Catalina 25 Owners Forum where a 2009 C250WK lost their rudder offshore. The link is as follows: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22015&whichpage=1. It makes me wonder if it is a one time failure or if it will affect the C250 I have on order. Either way, I thought you should know about it since Catalina will probably want to address it on the forum and put owners at ease. The owner was kind enough to post a picture of the failed pintle.

Vic Holmstrom

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2010 : 15:06:05

I wonder if the pintle would have gone undetected if you had a tiller instead of a wheel.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 07:38:58

Your broken pintle looks like the hole is countersunk for a washer. But grinding out that ring would weaken the steel around the hole, I think. My pintles are smooth steel with straight holes.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 08:47:19

I kept my series one rudder and tiller and stow them down below on the aft mattress. One of my next projects [this fall] was to install asecond set of grudgeons to hold the mast carrier and thanx to you folks I have a second use for the alternate grudgeons, just in case.

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windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 09:21:12

Thanks, all, for your comments. They have been most helpful.
John, you mentioned two things that I like.
First, using washers makes a lot of sense, and they will be included in my replacement plan.
Second, some forum members have installed a third gudgeon. This spreads the load and also provides redundancy, since the rudder would still function in the event of a single pintle failure. Nice safety feature for offshore.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1787 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 09:45:22

That was one of the out takes as well -- the third gudgeon. Let us know if and what Catalina's response is . . .

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 10:19:13

If you didn't have a washer in that countersunk area, then maybe the bolt head itself, or the nylock nut on the opposite side gouged out rings and might have weakened the steel.

I would think the bolts would have to be tightened only enough to prevent the nuts from loosening. With the flat steel plates of the pintle arms, there is a lot of force holding the rudder in place.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 10:36:07

When I first launched my 1999 Cat 250WK it needed to be motored five miles to its dock. With the mast down, no ballast ahead of the V-berth, and about 200 pounds of stuff under the cockpit it was stern heavy. When I tried motoring without the rudder it was like running with a wheelbarrow. It was directionally unstable. I had to constantly steer the motor to correct the heading. If my corrections were too slow I would lose control with the boat going in a circle despite full opposite motor steering. I had to wait for it to stop and then go again. More speed made it more difficult to stay in control. If you do have to use a makeshift rudder I think steering will be easier if you move some weight forward.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 08/09/2010 10:48:30

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 10:47:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 If my corrections were too slow I would lose control with the boat going in a circle despite full opposite motor steering.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This was my experience precisely.
My takeaway from this? My rudder failure plan cannot be to use the outboard to steer.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 11:23:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 When I first launched my 1999 Cat 250WK it needed to be motored five miles to its dock. With the mast down, no ballast ahead of the V-berth, and about 200 pounds of stuff under the cockpit it was stern heavy. When I tried motoring without the rudder it was like running with a wheelbarrow. It was directionally unstable. I had to constantly steer the motor to correct the heading. If my corrections were too slow I would lose control with the boat going in a circle despite full opposite motor steering. I had to wait for it to stop and then go again. More speed made it more difficult to stay in control. If you do have to use a makeshift rudder I think steering will be easier if you move some weight forward. 
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It would be interesting to retry this experiment going in reverse. With the motor pulling the boat, you may get different results.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2010 : 13:22:58

Brit - I rethought my earlier post in this thread - While we DID manage to negotiate the boulder field without a rudder, once we were in a safe spot, I dropped the hook, and jury rigged the rudder, refastening it to the pintles with some binder wire I had onboard for an unrelated project. Sorry if I mislead you earlier.

Our order of operations was:

1. Free the boat from the grounding under power.
2. Motor away from the rock that got us, in reverse, to a safe spot.
3. Spin the boat around so we were heading forward, and get clear of the boulder field.
4. Drop the hook and re-attach the rudder, using the motor to control our swing on the anchor, holding the boat away from threatening rocks.
5. Take up the anchor and motor to safety for repairs.

ETA - I have realized that both you and the OP have C-250's so my experience isn't worth the paper its written on. Sorry to waste the bandwidth, but maybe another C-25 owner will be relieved to read it.

Edited by - Prospector on 08/09/2010 13:30:23

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