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Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/10/2010 : 12:41:29

Good afternoon! As I introduced myself in another post, my family is interested in getting into sailing. I have another dumb newby question I would like to ask, please.

I've narrowed my choices in boats to 4. One of them is a Catalina 22, the other three are Catalina 25s. All are from the early to mid 1980s. Each boat has some significant advantages to itself, and my wife and I are discussing the options.

One feature that my wife has a strong opinion about: she wants a head with marine toilet, not a porta-potty. She considers this to be non-negotiable. Of the boats we're considering, only one of the Catalina 25s has a head; the other three have nothing.

But... the one boat with a head is not as "nice" as the others. It will need some work to bring it up. The other boats have been through significant rebuild and upgrades in the past few years.

So... dumb question... is it possible to retrofit a head and holding tank into one of the "nicer" boats?

Thanks!

Howard Warren
Little Rock, AR
1979 C-25 #1435, "Novia"

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:10:21

I have a porto- potty and I find it much easier to take it to the marina restroom and dump it out than having to motor over to the pump out station and deal with all that. Plus if that marine head is old it might come with an odor. That's what happened on my My buddy's C-27. He just had to buy a replacement head which he got for about $150.

I would tell the wife that you'll empty it, that's about the only real difference.

BTW, #2 is NOT allowed.

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:22:20

Unfortunately a porta-potty not an option, and neither is blocking her use of it. To give a bit more background, my wife had surgery last year for colon cancer... removed about 3' of large intestine. So now, sometimes she "has to run" with little warning.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:23:31

Is her concern the need to remove, empty, and clean the thing, or is she insisting on a china bowl beneath the seat (which is generally plastic either way)? There are several self-contained units that can be used as porta-potties, or plumbed and vented as heads that are pumped out from a deck fitting. (Note that the stuff cannot go into the water... you have to attend to it somehow.)

My boat (now not a C-25) has a [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=16782&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10111&subdeptNum=10687&classNum=11081"]self-contained unit[/url] that's a china bowl and plastic seat, sitting on top of a 9-gallon holding tank that's plumbed to the deck. The water supply is my fresh water tank, pressurized by an electric pump. The advantage is there's no plumbing between the throne and the holding tank to clog, leak, or otherwise emit odors. In fact, there is no odor--period. Of course, I use an enzyme deodorizer, which helps... (Salt water is a major culprit in generating odors in marine heads--you can smell many of my friends' heads for that reason.)

So yes, a head can be retrofitted to any C-25, on the port side between the main salon and the v-berth, where the factory intended it. The C-22 is another matter--it has no place to put one except, I suppose, where the porta-pottie goes, which lacks privacy.

Buy the best boat. If you have a choice between early and mid-80s C-25s, I'd put some weight on the cockpit fuel locker that was introduced in the early 80s--I think around 1983. There were other upgrades over the years, most of which can be retrofitted and are available from Catalina Direct. There are other factors you've discussed with us here, but I thought I'd mention that as something you might not have noticed.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/10/2010 13:50:20

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:23:34

Wander around the marina long enough and you're bound to hear someone cussing at their malfunctioning marine head. Since you will never be offshore with your C-25 in Arkansas, you will never pump waste overboard (legally). So, you'll have to deal with it somehow. A porta-potti is just easier. A head will have to be pumped out as Peter mentioned.

I would imagine that you wife's single biggest concern with the porta-potti is the potential for odor. The proper use of readily available chemicals for treating the holding tank really eliminates (pardon the pun) that worry. I've returned to my boat after a week or more absence in the heat of summer with a partially filled tank and not had a problem. Emptying them is really not an issue. The solids dissolve and the effluent simply gets poured down the drain at the appropriate place. Just promise your wife she'll never have to do it.

To more directly answer your question: (not dumb, by the way) Yes. It just takes money, time and a certain set of skills. I just yesterday heard about somebody installing a holding tank higher than the head. Ooops.

There is a guy on the forum that installed a pump out for his porta potti in a C250.

BTW, if you're not going to be a trailer sailor, I'd take the C22 out of the equation. After your first season, you're going to want a bigger boat.

Edited by - on

djdurrett
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:40:27

This is our method (Lugable Loo)... Works great. I would avoid plumbing if at all possible. But that is just me. I cannot stand a stinky boat!

http://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Products-Luggable-Portable-Gallon/dp/B000FIAPXO

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:40:40

Dave, you said "My boat has a self-contained unit that's a china bowl and plastic seat, sitting on top of a 9-gallon holding tank that's plumbed to the deck. The water supply is my fresh water tank, pressurized by an electric pump."

Dave, this sounds like you have taken a pump-out porta-potty and improved it. By "plumbed to the deck" do you mean that you cut a pump-out port through the hull to connect to the built-in holding tank? Of have I misunderstood?

Also, is this a manufactured unit or somthing you invented yourself? It seems it would solve my problem.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 13:56:37

Howard, [url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=16782&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10111&subdeptNum=10687&classNum=11081"]this[/url] is basically my unit (maybe slightly different from my 3-year-old model). No inventing involved. The pressure comes from my pressurized water system that uses a little pressure-activated electric pump. I like this best of any head setup I've seen on quite a variety of boats--especially as a unit on my own boat. Nine gallons isn't unlimited, but no holding tanks are... My usage makes it very adequate.

Edit: Any permanent head in a boat will/must have two things: A deck fitting for pumping it out (with a hose from the tank to the fitting), and a smaller vent hose to a fitting that typically goes through the side of the hull, below the rubrail. Being near an ocean, I also have a macerator and an overboard output that I've never used, but that's not useful for you.

Check the tank dimensions against the space between the bulkheads in the C-25 head compartment--I can't guarantee it'll fit. If the pottie shelf needs to be extended admidships a little, that's a lot easier than installing a holding tank.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/10/2010 14:08:02

Slingerland
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:07:57

Dave, thanks! So basically you have a small electric pump on your freshwater supply, you ran a fresh water line to the head location, and then cut two holes in the hull for the vent and the pumpout connection?

Does the pump kick on when pressure is drawn, or do you have to turn it on by hand?

Also to djdurrett... if I suggested to my wife that we carry a bucket with kitty litter, she would KILL me (laughing.)

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:11:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Slingerland
 Dave, thanks! So basically you have a small electric pump on your freshwater supply, you ran a fresh water line to the head location, and then cut two holes in the hull for the vent and the pumpout connection?

Does the pump kick on when pressure is drawn, or do you have to turn it on by hand?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yes and yes... although this was installed by the builder of my boat (the green one on the right). But it was my choice.

The pump works just as you speculate. Switched ON (on my panel), it runs only when the pressure drops and shuts off when it rises. I leave it switched off most of the time. These are very common on boats.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:17:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 These are very common on boats.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Pressurized water systems are common on lots of boats, just not on C 25's.

There are, however, pressure flush porta potties that are self contained.

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Slingerland
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:17:46

Dave, I think you've solved my problem! Thanks!

This can actually bring the 22' back into consideration. I prefer the Catalina 25 for the space and stability, but I can trailer the Catalina 22 with my V6 Ford Explorer... giving me more options. The Explorer won't pull the Catalina 25... in fact, I can visualize the Catalina 25 pulling the Explorer back into the lake... (laughing)

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:39:10

Thanks, John. If it were just me, I would use the bucket-and-kitty-litter solution and put the money elsewhere on the boat. But my wife has put her foot down... it HAS to be pump-out, and "that's the way it's going to be."

With Dave's solution, I can talk her into one of the better boats... they cost more, but in better shape (grin!)

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 14:41:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Slingerland
 ...but I can trailer the Catalina 22 with my V6 Ford Explorer...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Correctomundo!

Where would this go in the C-22? I recall the pottie being between the two sides of the v-berth. This might not fit there--either too wide or too tall... The hoses could go through the v-berth side and then up to the fittings.

BTW, there might be a version of this that, while drawing from the fresh water system, doesn't need a separate pump. Also, as John points out, there are "porta potties" that are designed to optionally be plumbed in as a permanent head--some with built-in electric flush systems. An advantage is that when anything goes wrong with the system, you yank it and replace it as a unit--no nasty uninstallation project. A disadvantage is that capacity is generally only around 5 gallons. You can explore West Marine for details.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 15:17:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> if I suggested to my wife that we carry a bucket with kitty litter, she would KILL me (laughing.)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why? She has something against Kitty Litter?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 16:37:24

If it really comes down to it, installing a marine head is not that challenging. Start with a nicer boat.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 18:00:05

It is not dificult to install a marine sanitation system on a C25. If the wife said it's not negotiable all the trying to convince you to install a prota-potty is to no avail. There are hundreds of marine sanitation systems that work perfectly every day. Were it my wife, I would install the very best for her.
Go to www.catalinaowners.com. Look under Expert Forums, it is run by a woman named Peggy Hall. She is refered to as The Head Mistress. She has written the book on marine sanitation, literally, and she's a woman so she has the correct perspective for what your looking for. Buy her book and ask her any question you want. She is a very nice person and will answer any question on her forum.
I think Leon put in a holding in the V berth on his C25 and did a super job.
Dan

Edited by - Happy D on 08/10/2010 18:11:01

pastmember
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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 18:12:25

I mean this in the very best and kindest way...
Put on your big boy panties and make your decision based on the condition of the boat.
Make your wife happy with a solution that meets her needs after you buy the best boat.
That is providing for your crew in the best way a captain can.

Edit:
If I wanted a marine head I would MUCH prefer to do a virgin install. I would literally tear out everything that was there if there was an old one so I would rather design my own system using the newest and best available and start with a boat that never had one.

Edited by - pastmember on 08/10/2010 18:20:11

Slingerland
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/10/2010 : 20:01:10

Ah, pastmember, were it just so simple as that...

You see, my wife is half-Korean, 4'11" tall, and has had a rough few years. She survived colon cancer, surgery, chemo and as a result is somewhat... fixed... in her viewpoints. One of which is that she doesn't haul waste around in buckets (had enough of that during chemo.) She did once, but that life is LONG behind her. And if I think differently... well... would you want to face this? B)

http://www.warrengallery.com/soccer_4_0138.jpg

On the other hand, if I provide her an "appropriately civilzed" facility then perhaps I can look forward to some romantic getaway afternoons... cruise out onto the lake, find a shady spot, drop the achor and well... you know... ;)

(Laughing)

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 05:47:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Make your wife happy with a solution that meets her needs after you buy the best boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Exactly

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 06:02:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 These are very common on boats.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Pressurized water systems are common on lots of boats, just not on C 25's.

There are, however, pressure flush porta potties that are self contained.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorry John, but I have the same set up as Dave. The pressurized water also services the sinks. Howard you and your wife know what you want. Get it and enjoy life

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 06:04:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 ...If I wanted a marine head I would MUCH prefer to do a virgin install. I would literally tear out everything that was there if there was an old one so I would rather design my own system using the newest and best available and start with a boat that never had one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Frank makes an excellent point! Marine heads are ugly systems--a used one, with dubious maintenance, is uglier. Selecting and installing your own from scratch has some advantages, and not having to remove an old one has even more advantages!

BTW, for future reference, only use the special white hose that costs $10/foot, not the $1-3 stuff.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/11/2010 06:09:28

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 06:14:47

Glen, my point was that they not common on C25s, not that they don't exist.

Edited by - on

Slingerland
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 07:27:33

Thank you again, everybody! I appreciate all the help and knowledge you offer to newbys like me!

tonight is the "big" first sail night... a sunset cruise on a 26' Hunter. The sailing instructor is going to make my son work on the boat, and we'll see if he finds it interesting enough to continue. Sailing requires a lot of learning, and my younger son (while incredibly intelligent) is ADHD.

I guess if we do not take up sailing, I could always restore a power cruiser: http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/1891285329.html

And Happy D, thanks for the link! Peggy Hall is in the same town I'm in, so I'm looking forward to emailing with her.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 07:48:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 If it really comes down to it, installing a marine head is not that challenging. Start with a nicer boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

+1

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2010 : 09:36:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Slingerland
 ...I guess if we do not take up sailing, I could always restore a power cruiser: http://littlerock.craigslist.org/boa/1891285329.html<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, right. $50-60K to repower and you'll have yourself an old $15k boat that'll need a lot of other TLC for all of those wonderful "systems"...

You'll be boating in no time!

BTW, I'd try to get those boys and the instructor out in at least a 10 kt. breeze so there's at least a little excitement and speed in their first experience. Limp sheets and ripples off the hull won't make a good first impression, especially on a big tub like an H-260. (Not that they can't sail--they're just sorta "big tubs.")

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/11/2010 09:42:26

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