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Rigid boom vang (kicker) vs topping lift

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matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/18/2002 : 22:53:46

I'm a recent member and have gotten a lot of good info from this site w/o even having to ask. But now I've got to ask.

I have a 1985 25 tall rig and I'm tired of life with only a pig tail to hold up my boom. I'm considering either a topping life or a rigid boom vang. CD offers a topping lift and also something they call a boom kicker which appears to be the rigid part of a rigid boom vang. There's another company called Garhauer Marine Hardware ( http://garhauermarine.com/ ) that sells a rigid boom vang that the 250 folks have dealt with and seem to like.

My questions are:
1. Any 25 sailors have any opinions on topping lift vs a rigid vang?
2. Any experience with these or other products?

Thanks for your input/advise. It's all appreciated.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2002 : 23:22:49

Welcome, John!

No experience, but an observation: You won't be able to use your poptop (if you have one) with the rigid vang. With a "soft" vang and a topping lift, you can disconnect the vang to raise the poptop while the topping lift holds the boom.

C-250s don't have this problem--their poptops tip up on a hinge forward.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 11/18/2002 23:26:55

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2002 : 23:46:42

I have a rigid Garhauer boom vang on my C-25. It works great--excellent quality. Call Mark at Garhauer (909) 985-7513 and tell him that you need the removable option for a C-25 with pop-top. At no charge, he'll include a special mast base for the rigid boom vang that is easily removable. The top (boom) of the vang goes on a sliding track. DO NOT use the sliding tack opition for the mast base connection.

You will have to remove the vang to raise the pop top, but its easy to do. Attach the pigtail to the boom, then remove the vang.

If your interested, I try to take pictures this weekend of the installation.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2002 : 23:51:18

Personally, I only use my poptop about twice a year during cleanings and long stays. I think it would be worth it. You could probably rig it to move (of course I have a topping lift that I could fall back on during those times that I wanted to do the poptop) But I can't decide if it's worth the boat units ($168 at Defender). I like the sail trim that you can do with a topping lift in light winds though! Also, How would the moving gooseneck be affected? Would you have to put the boom at the sailing height with a slug stop and not use the downhaul? 
Good Luck, Let us know what you do, if you do, and send pics!! that way you can return the favor of the info you've gained here by contributing!
 
<img src="http://www.proxycreative.com/clients/luckystar/s_vang_boomkicker.jpg" border=0>

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 04:43:46

osmepneo has a boom kicker, boom vang and no topping lift.

boomkicker basically holds the boom up, and in my opinion does not remove the need for a vang when you want to keep the boom down, like when you go off wind. So I use both.

With respect to using the pop top. Boom kicker comes with a slide section, which allows it to removed when ever you want to raise the pop top. So that should not be of major concern.

I sometimes think of adding a topping lift. One reason is to have some control over boom height, but for me the more important reason is to allow the boom to be a better hand hold when I go forward. You know the old rule one hand for the boat and one hand for you. When I go forward I tend to use the boom as a railing. When I stumble I go down and the boom doesn't provide any support. So a topping lift would keep the boom up for those times when I'm being clumsy.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 11/19/2002 04:44:29

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Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 09:04:47

Two more arguments for a topping lift:

1. I'm 6'3", and like to be able to lift the boom WAY up when not sailing so I can avoiding headaches.

2. I use the boom as a crane for lifting the outboard on and off the mount. If I had a dinghy, I could use it for that, too. I could also use it to lift an injured swimmer.

Brooke

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Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 10:34:23

Brooke,

How do you use the boom to lift your motor on and off the mount? I usually have to back the truck up to the back of the boat, then with the help of someone else, manhandle the motor off and on.

Shelby
'82 C25 #3208
"Third S"
SKSR
Honda
Lake Pleasant, AZ

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 11:05:03

Shelby:

First, understand that because the boom is so short, it doesn't work perfectly. Nevertheless, I have a snap shackle at the lower end of my mainsheet tackle. That allows me to simply detach that tackle and use it to lift. I raise the boom up, attach the mainsheet to a line I put around the outboard handle, and tension the sheet. This doesn't allow me to easily lift the motor, because the sheet is bent over the stern pulpit, but it provides security so the motor doesn't fall into the water.

Once the motor is off the mount, I can swing the motor to the side of the boat, lift it to the dock (with the topping lift), and detach.

Hope that makes sense. It's not a perfect system, but it's a lot better than muscling the motor over the stern rail and then over the side onto a dock.

Brooke

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 12:07:21

The idea of having the boom held up is intriquing (sp- the church lady came to a couple of weeks ago after service having edited my church bulletin and correcting my misspelling, especially of words spell checker doesn't catch), especially for lifting the motor off the ob bracket. Even having something attached would a step up as you struggle to lift it of the bracket. I've brought theboat to the dock so that the ob was very close to the dock, and then stood on the dock to lift it off. I'd feel a lot more comfortable thinking about doing this if I had a good way to secure the ob independently of my struggles.

Thanks for the idea, Brooke

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 16:51:02

When removing the outboard over water, it may be wise to attach one end of a sturdy line to the motor and the other end to a float just in case the worst happens. You never know when you will have to choose between saving your motor or saving your back!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 18:57:47

I have the soft vang and added a topping lift (1/8" line) last winter.

Technically, I guess it's not a true topping lift 'cause it's rigged like my internal halyard - to a block at the top of the mast, down inside the mast and out and back to the cockpit. It's great for holding the boom up and adjusting the sail shape in light air.

And it didn't cost anywhere near the 5 boat units of most rigid vangs I've seen. What can I say...I'm cheap.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

matsche
Captain

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USA
280 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 19:29:30

albert: I would be very interested to see the pictures, as would others I'm sure.

Thanks to all for your replies. It seems topping lifts are favored for a variety of reasons. I hadn't considered the 'other' lifting possibilities (motors, dingys, people, etc...)

With regards to sail trim and reefing, I would have thought that a rigid vang would be an advantage, since boom tension can be controlled at one location instead of two. Do you guys with rigid vangs see any advantage there?

John Matsche 1985 Cat-25 TR/FK
e-mail: matsche@mindspring.com

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Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 19:41:31

The rigid vang is just so trouble free. I've used a "Boomkicker" for a couple of years. It is very handy.
Mark L.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 21:01:35

matsche,

Welcome to the "club".<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>1. Any 25 sailors have any opinions on topping lift vs a rigid vang?
2. Any experience with these or other products?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I haven't tried a rigid vang/boom support yet, but I won't let that stop me from rambling on about the general topic of vangs and topping lifts.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

On my 1979 C-25 and two previous boats, I've had a high ratio soft vang lead to the cockpit, combined with an adjustable masthead topping lift.

I'm not fond of the factory pigtail, to put it mildly. (I got rid of mine.) The only redeeming charateristic I can see to that setup is the ability to restrain the boom from swinging wildly from side to side in waves, such as when anchored, docked, or motoring. Under those conditions, over tightening the mainsheet against a masthead topping lift to control the boom puts a very high strain on the topping lift, without really getting the boom to settle down completely.

I made the vang line extra long, so it can be eased enough to be out of the way of the raised pop-top. (I raise my pop-top about once a month or so.)

The tail of my 2:1 line/wire topping lift is lead along the boom to the mast, and back to the cockpit. The sliding gooseneck does introduce some side effects that wouldn't be there with a fixed height boom. One alternative would be to use a 3/16" or so all rope topping lift routed much like an internal main halyard. Adding mechanical advantage (2:1 or 3:1) to that would be possible, but would seem to put too many moving parts too far out of reach for me to be comfortable with going that route. I'm also not comfortable with a 1:1 topping lift held by a small camcleat opposing the potential force of a 3:1 (or even 4:1) 3/8" mainsheet tackle. Yeah, there's no good reason to tension a topping lift enough to damage that setup, but if someone forgets to ease the topping lift before sheeting in hard, it's gonna happen.

It's my (admittedly vague) understanding that the various "reverse vang" topping lift alternatives support not much more than the weight of the boom and furled sail. If this is true, it would seem to complicate rigging a boom tent, or casually sitting on, or as Don Peet mentioned, leaning against the furled mainsail without first either moving the main halyard to the aft end of the boom, or setting up the cursed pigtail.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 11/19/2002 21:13:52

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Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2002 : 22:10:18

Regular boom vang can be uncleated from the base of the mast and be used as a preventer attached to a slider on the jib track. Rigid vang cant. Toping lift can be used to lift something out of the water or for many other uses a rigid vang cant. A toping lift costs a lot less a rigid vand doesn't. Do I need to go on?

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 12:59:47

I've been using a topping lift for about five years and regard it's only purpose to be supporting the boom while at anchor or mooring. Lifting would be out of the question since I use only 3/16" line. On the several occasions I've had to reef my main, I was thankful that I was able to drop the boom end completely into the cockpit to gain a measure of control in a high wind. A safety feature to think about as your crew is lowering the main next to a wildly flailing boom.

I am finding however, that I am sinlge-handing more and more and believe the rigid vang would be more a help than a hinderance during reefing, particluarly when sailing Lake Superior where high winds pop up out of knowhere with little warning. Keeping your head out of the way of the boom is still a problem that will not go away no matter what system you use.

I intend to purchase the Garhauer rigid vang. A friend of mine put one on his 30 footer last year. Very high quality ss construction and included all hardware and lines. He has not had to use it while reefing yet but finds it far more convenient than a traditional vang and topping lift - fewer lines to deal with.

I believe I've used my pop-top once in the 14 years I've owned my C25T. Thanks for the tip on the special vang base Albert. I might use that pop-top yet.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 14:08:33

Lifting ability isn't solely a function of line diameter, but material also. My 1/8" topping lift is spectron 12 - 1800 lb. strength rating.

I know, it's a bit of overkill, but I couldn't resist playing with some high-tech line.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 19:47:31

"On the several occasions I've had to reef my main, I was thankful that I was able to drop the boom end completely into the cockpit to gain a measure of control in a high wind. A safety feature to think about as your crew is lowering the main next to a wildly flailing boom."
Al, your comment confuses me. The only way you can have a "wildly flailing boom" is to come head to wind. Don't! Keep going to weather and just drop the main halyard (it helps if your halyard is marked at the point to which it should be lowered), haul on the reefing line and then tension the halyard again. Safe, quick & easy.
Derek (who's crew's record for reefing is 21 seconds! Damn they're good!)

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 20:00:09

quote]
"Keep going to weather and just drop the main halyard (it helps if your halyard is marked at the point to which it should be lowered), haul on the reefing line and then tension the halyard again. Safe, quick & easy.
Derek (who's crew's record for reefing is 21 seconds! Damn they're good!)"

Can this be done single-handed and no auto pilot? I agree with marking the halyard but........, crew is often not available.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 20:57:36

Al,

Good question, at for me. osmepneo has an auto helm, so it sounds academic for me.

First thought, admitably a knee jerk would be tie the helm and reef. then I thought, Mmmmm! Why heave-to? Then you could reef, and when everything is ready cast the jib off and continue sailing."

What do ya' think?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 22:05:55

Al (and Don) - if you have an autohelm it's a no brainer! When single-handing on "This Side Up" I have a bungee across the tiller tied with a clove hitch which allows me almost the same freedom as an autohelm. I can reef the main without any difficulty (but not as fast as my crew!) If you keep heading to weather the main is always under control, and you have no worry about your heaving-to failing when the main loses some drive.
Derek

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 11/28/2002 : 12:01:58

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Al (and Don) - if you have an autohelm it's a no brainer! When single-handing on "This Side Up" I have a bungee across the tiller tied with a clove hitch which allows me almost the same freedom as an autohelm. I can reef the main without any difficulty (but not as fast as my crew!) If you keep heading to weather the main is always under control, and you have no worry about your heaving-to failing when the main loses some drive.
Derek

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Thanks for the info on the bungee cord. What size do you use for this appliation? I solved my single handed reefing problem by buying an autohelm. The bungee idea would be an excellent emergency steering method. I didn't mean to imply that I head-to-wind and stall the boat to reef. However, in most conditions in which I have had to reef, accidental boom swing is an ever-present safety problem, particularly for the single-hander. A rigid vang is another "tool" to make this task easier and safer.

Al
GALLIVANT #5801

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2002 : 04:31:47

Garhauer rigid boom vang pictures at http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/page3.htm

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

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