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Please help need advice on new cat 25

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mattt6511
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/01/2010 : 23:11:51

Hello im in the process of purchasing a catalina 25 swing keel sailboat my main question is the boat is in the water now but needs the swing keel winch replaced is this something i can do in the water or do i need to take it to a yard and haul it out of the water, i understand i should probably in a few months take it out to replace the keel cable and all but for now i just need to fix it up enough to temporarily move it to its new anchoring site. The catalina i found needs a good amount of work, its needs the swing keel winch replaced, the mainsail needs to be replaced, and the engine needs some basic work on it, and a few other small things but i found this boat for a steal. I realized im probably going to invest several thousand dollars fixing it up and i can probably get one in better condition if i just spent a few extra thousand but im looking to gain long term sailboat knowledge and i really would enjoy a hands on project like this. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated, this is my first sailboat so i know its quite a large plunge for a noob like me.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 03:29:50

Welcome Matthew,

Re: "...needs the swing keel winch replaced is this something i can do in the water or do i need to take it to a yard and haul it out of the water,..."

I've always changed the keel winch while hauled out, but I suppose it could be done in the water if you're real careful. Keep in mind where the waterline is -- that 'radiator hose' around the cable is flooded. Don't let the loose end of the cable get away from your. It still remembers being tightly coiled. Maybe a pair of Vice-Grips on the wire where it enters the hose would be a good idea. And do the work in a location where there's no pressure to rush. Either in dead flat water where the keel can rest on very hard bottom with no wave action, or in deep enough water the keel can hang well clear of the bottom.

Re: "...looking to gain long term sailboat knowledge and i really would enjoy a hands on project like this. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated, this is my first sailboat so i know its quite a large plunge for a noob like me."

I'd say you've picked an excellent boat to gain that hands-on project experience you seek.

Re: "...needs a good amount of work, its needs the swing keel winch replaced, the mainsail needs to be replaced, and the engine needs some basic work on it, and a few other small things..."

If that's all your bargain priced C-25 needs, it's a very good amount of work indeed!

I hope you have had a professional survey done. (And if not, it would still be worth the money.)

These are fantastically well designed, well built, sturdy boats. However, over the years several areas have consistently required attention more than others. Swing keel system preventative maintenance is particularly important, as is standing rigging. The original electrical systems could benefit from some upgrades by now.

I strongly encourage you to take the time to read back through the archives on this forum. I also suggest you get a copy of "This Old Boat" by Don Casey. We will be recommending other books as you go, depending upon what you're planning to work on next.

Keep in mind, we can't see your boat from here.

When asking for advice on this forum, We suggest you include the following info about your C-25 (depending on the question):<ul><li>Model year.</li><li>Type of keel (fin,swing,wing).</li><li>Style of interior (traditional, dinette, or early L-dinette).</li><li>Engine make & model.</li><li>Type of mast (standard or tall).</li><li>Brand and model of any equipment you're asking us about.</li></ul>These boats underwent some evolutionary changes during their long, successful production run. Even the 'newest' C-25 has had time to accumulate a lot of modifications by now.

Again, welcome to the group! You've chosen a great boat.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 09/02/2010 03:32:31

sacco48
Deckhand

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8 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 04:42:18

welcome pal as I am a new comer also. I had my own swing keel crash this year (first year with the boat and replaced the winch from CD) Look back in previous posts and you will find it. Keel crashed and boat is still floating. Have had many great days sailing this summer. Anyway. The second winch that they sent me I did in the water. First one was defective, have my own issue with them for now. Took two 10,000 ratchet straps (over kill 1 would do) and strapped it around the boat. They need to go just forward of cockpit (over pop top down of course) and hook them together. don't ratchet to tight just need to take weight off. the rest is simple. Three nuts and off it comes. Cant do the cable until on the hard ( have to stick with old one for now) Some have said to dive down etc but from personal exp. seems difficult and can be done out of dire straits. Enjoy, after I got over the keel crash paranoia the rest is a blast

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 05:57:52

In addition to what Leon said, have a good friend who is an adept sailor and maintainer of boats go over it with you. If that isn't possible, you might want to let us know where the boat is lying. Sometimes folks from this forum know history of boats in their area. Sometimes we are even able to gowalk the dock with newbies and point out what is good and what needs improving.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 07:22:24

Matt, I've replaced my winch twice, although not while the boat was in the water. Lower the keel and see if there's enough extra cable on the drum for you to do the work. There should be. I'd recommend having a friend available to help hand you tools, and hold the winch up when installing it. There's not a lot of room to work. You'll need some fairly small nut drivers for the job -- for the clamp that holds the end of the cable to the drum.

If you're in salt water, I highly recommend coating the new winch drum with the stuff they use to coat truck beds. Salt water eats away the drum and created the need for my two winch replacements.

Edited by - Even Chance on 09/02/2010 07:23:22

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 10:55:27

Matt I replaced my cable , turning ball ,winch , turning ball pin 3/4 years ago . My boat was out of the water at the time.. If you do attempt it be careful to route the cable over the turning ball groove. I don't know how you could do this with the radiator hose installed. The turning ball keeps the cable in the center of the slot.
Frank Law

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 12:05:00

Matt,

Congratulations on your soon to be new purchase. The Catalina 25 is a wonderful boat and this forum will prove to be a great asset to you as you fix and improve your boat. I recently replaced the keel cable, turning ball, and hose and completely checked out the winch on my boat. I did this while the boat was on the hard and it was actually pretty simple. If you are going to replace the winch anyway, go ahead and get a new cable, turning ball, and hose at the same time. Leon makes an excellent suggestion with "This Old Boat" by Don Casey. My favorite is also by Casey (he's da bomb!) called "The Complete Book of Sailboat Maintenance"

Good luck and let us know what you learn!

Edited by - on

mattt6511
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 15:46:03

wow thanks for all the responses, ill get some more details on the ship, she is a 1982 catalina tall sail 25, with swing keel with a 1985 johnson longshaft. The boat is $600 dollars and even though i know it needs a decent amount of work i still considered this to be a great price. I may end up taking it out of the water in a few months and go over everything with a fine comb but for now i just want to move it to a anchorage site, is it possible to just get the outboard fixed and leave the keel winch down for a few months in the water or will that cause further damage? Basically my goal for now is just moving the sailboat from the previous owners dock and anchoring it somewhere for a few months, then taking it out of the water at a boatyard.

Edited by - on

mattt6511
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 15:50:28

Oh i forgot to ask does anyone know the dimensions on the mainsail on this ship?? In need to locate and purchase a new mainsail

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 17:14:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mattt6511
 . . . want to move it to a anchorage site, is it possible to just get the outboard fixed and leave the keel winch down for a few months . . . my goal for now is just moving the sailboat from the previous owners dock and anchoring it somewhere for a few months . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The general consensus here is to leave the keel down except when launching and retrieving with a trailer - and, of course, in shallow waters. Does the depth of all the waters you will be transporting the boat across exceed the depth of the keel in the down position? There are stories of C25 owners damaging the keel attachment point when attempting to become ungrounded with the keel in the down position.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 17:23:14

You will draw about 5 feet with the keel down, Stock sails are available from all major lofts and Catalina Direct.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2010 : 19:29:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The general consensus here is to leave the keel down except when launching and retrieving with a trailer - and, of course, in shallow waters.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not sure about "general:" many hold that position; the C25 handbook and others, myself included, don't. I've posted, again, my reasons for agreeing with the handbook on the current "keel freeplay and cable failure" thread. There are strong arguments for both positions, but I am betting on the designer/manufacturer to know what they were talking about.

I absolutely agree with the advice about replacing the turning ball and hose when the boat is out of the water.

Edited by - Even Chance on 09/02/2010 19:35:09

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2010 : 15:01:39

I've worked on the winch while afloat. To make things a little easier, I breakdown the companionway stairs to get better access to the winch. There's three bolts and a few screws, couldn't be simpler.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2010 : 16:28:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The general consensus here is to leave the keel down except when launching and retrieving with a trailer - and, of course, in shallow waters.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...There are strong arguments for both positions, but I am betting on the designer/manufacturer to know what they were talking about.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and the designer/manufacturer says in the C-25 Owner's Manual, "Keeping a retractable-keel model in salt water
for lengthy periods is not recommended." They then go on to recommend adding a sacrificial zinc anode to the keel to retard galvanic corrosion between the bronze pivot pin and the cast iron, among other things.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/03/2010 16:31:20

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2010 : 17:21:45

Yep, Dave, you're absolutely right. Which is why I followed the rest of their recommendations. If you're down one strike, don't tempt fate any further. It's worked on Even Chance for 25 years now.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2010 : 18:31:29

I generally leave the keel down now since the only thing you are protecting by keeping it up is part of the stainless cable and attachment (if you have the newer attachment). All of my zincs do get eaten up and replaced about every two years.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2010 : 19:48:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I generally leave the keel down now since the only thing you are protecting by keeping it up is part of the stainless cable and attachment (if you have the newer attachment). All of my zincs do get eaten up and replaced about every two years.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When the keel is up, most of the cable is out of the water. Also, I believe there's less opportunity for the keel to flex from wakes and storms. These points, however, have been debated here ad infinitum et ad nauseum for many, many years.

Edited by - on

mattt6511
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2010 : 22:28:08

So i went today to make final payment and to get the title for the catalina and....... It wasnt there.. I tried calling the persons cell phone number and it was not in service... Im pretty torn up and upset over this at least i didnt leave much of a deposit at all just a tiny amount but i was all ready i located some decent sails and everything else, found a haulout yard i could take the boat too, got the insurance all lined up with progressive and now.. Nothing. Oh well i suppose things like this happen its pretty sad, I knew a deal like this was too good to be true, ill just keep looking and make sure i pay all of it upfront and get the title and everything upfront. I just have to decide too keep looking for a catalina 25 or maybe a catalina 27, there is a great deal on a pearson that somone i know is selling but i know VERRRY little about pearson's but it looks like a quality boat. Im rabling on oh well i hope everyone had a great weekend!!!!

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2010 : 00:35:05

If I were you I would pick some boat in a perfect condition and go directly sailing. I already had a few wood and fibre boats but when you spend more time fixing than sailing, you will realize that you dont want this anymore and its better to give a little more $$$ to get a better boat.
I dont want to discourage you but this is my point of view

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2010 : 06:46:07

Some guy needs a visit from my friend Guido from Bayonne... just a "friendly" reminder about a deposit... We're all a family here, and "the family" wishes he'd be a little more up-front about things...

Meanwhile, there are other boats. Pearsons are in general good ones. They were the original fiberglass sailboat builder. Sadly, they didn't survive the early 90s industry crunch, but there are lots of owners and no doubt several forums to talk to. Catalinas have the advantage of a manufacturer that's in good shape and a huge customer base, with many associations like (if not nearly as good as) this one. Better luck!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2010 : 06:59:18

"It wasn't there...the person's cell phone number...was not in service..."
Maybe the boat was hot and you actually just lucked out and didn't get scammed for more money; sometimes when it's too good to be true, it's not a good deal at all.
Good luck on your search for a boat.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2010 : 07:03:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mattt6511
 Oh well i suppose things like this happen its pretty sad, I knew a deal like this was too good to be true....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If you paid the man some money, and have a receipt, and he took your money and left for parts unknown, it's beginning to sound like fraud, which is not business as usual. I'd suggest you talk to your local prosecuting attorney, and see if he can help you.

Edited by - on

Stuff4Toys
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2010 : 07:31:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mattt6511
 So i went today to make final payment and to get the title for the catalina and....... It wasnt there.. I tried calling the persons cell phone number and it was not in service... Im pretty torn up and upset over this at least i didnt leave much of a deposit at all just a tiny amount but i was all ready i located some decent sails and everything else, found a haulout yard i could take the boat too, got the insurance all lined up with progressive and now.. Nothing. Oh well i suppose things like this happen its pretty sad, I knew a deal like this was too good to be true, ill just keep looking and make sure i pay all of it upfront and get the title and everything upfront. I just have to decide too keep looking for a catalina 25 or maybe a catalina 27, there is a great deal on a pearson that somone i know is selling but i know VERRRY little about pearson's but it looks like a quality boat. Im rabling on oh well i hope everyone had a great weekend!!!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That really sucks, was the guy home when you went to pick it up? Catalina's are great boats.

Not to rain on your regatta, but where did you find sails, mine are on their last leg and need to be replaced.

Edited by - Stuff4Toys on 09/07/2010 13:52:45

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2010 : 14:46:13

I hope this guy isn't a scam artist but it reminds me of a guy that came to our Marina yrs ago. He took some photos of a boat that wasn't very expensive ( to avoid a survey) Put the photos on Craigslist and got a few bites. He then met the person at the boat and after offering a very good price and getting the buyer hooked, He then told him that he forgot the keys but for a small deposit he wouldn't show the boat to anybody else that day and for him to come back tomorrow when he would have the keys and either give him back his deposit or proceed with the sale. He gave the guy a phony phone number took his $200 cash and was never seen again.

Edited by - on

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