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Nationals start tomorrow!

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/22/2010 : 23:02:27

The Nationals start tomorrow. I took my boat down tonight and its rafted up right now with 2 Capri 25s (Toxic Haste and Zoom Zoom).

Frank Butler will be attending Saturday night and will be at the awards on Sunday. Sharon Day will be here, too.

We have 23 boats (Catalina 30s, 309s, 25s, 250s, and Capri 25s).

We have tons of sponsors and teriffic prizes and raffles.

There is a party every night.

Weather forecast is good.

I'll try to post updates each evening.

Personally I won't be happy with anything but 5 bullets - however Scott and Joe may have something to say about that!

This is going to be great!

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2010 : 06:15:55

Good sailing to all! It sounds like it's going to be a memorable event!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2010 : 07:47:34

Good luck to all and have a great time. Wish I was there! Above all, stay safe.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2010 : 14:09:48

I wanna know who's gonna throw Captain Jim into the bay after he gets his bullets! (Careful now--I've met him... You'll have your hands full!

)

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 08:01:31

Results, pics?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 21:54:41

We will let the 2010 National Champion Scott tell the story. The race was decided in the protest room, not on the water.

250 class was won by RxScape. They have a great story to tell as well. Not about protests, about getting some trailer damage fixed in time to make the start.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 21:55:46

Oh and Capri 25 class was won by Hugh Mast on Toxic Haste. They and Zoom Zoom had a teriffic weekend of match racing.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/27/2010 : 21:57:58

I do want to add that I won a lot in the raffle.

2 certificates for free rigging inspections

Derek Crawford sent me $20 and won a free rigging inspection.

We won one of the major prizes - hull cleaning, zincs, and all dive services for a year.

New docklines from West marine.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2010 : 07:42:47

Jim - how do I get my rigging inspection

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/28/2010 : 11:46:47

Derek, how about having the rigging inspected on a 1983 Pearson Flyer?

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2010 : 17:43:47

Sure Jim. Go ahead with the Pearson. My rigging is in good shape!

Edited by - on

Jonathan Cuff
Navigator

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Cayman Island
173 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2010 : 14:21:47

Where do we see the results and info please?

Cheers JC

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2010 : 14:47:45

Those names don't lead me to anyone in the Owners' (boat) Registry or the Members list for the forum. Any clues? Any chance they'll chime in here (if they haven't before)?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/29/2010 19:04:09

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2010 : 20:09:46

Do you have to be a member of the 25/250 Association to be in the Nationals race? If not maybe that should be a requirement. Also, since the Association knows who all the members are, the Members list on the forum could include all active members, not just forum users.

Or am I off base on this?

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2010 : 22:00:10

Here is a link to the Nationals site...no results posted yet
http://www.catalinanationalregatta.com/index.html

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2010 : 23:11:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Do you have to be a member of the 25/250 Association to be in the Nationals race? If not maybe that should be a requirement. Also, since the Association knows who all the members are, the Members list on the forum could include all active members, not just forum users.

Or am I off base on this?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is assumed that the Nationals can only be raced by members however a careful reading of the bylaws only says this;

"The Officers shall make every effort to solicit bids to hold the Nationals on an East, Central/Mountain, West, East time zone rotation in order to attempt to provide the greatest number of Regular Members a chance to compete for the title of National Champion."

This is the only mention of "members" participating.
We may need to revisit Article VII and spell out the requirements for participation in the Nationals.

Thoughts?

John G-

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2010 : 23:31:31

In the Catalina 25 Class (all Standard Rigs) I believe it was

Scott Hefty Ho o Kolohe 1 1 1 2 2
Indiscipline 2 DSQ 2 1 1 (finished first in the DSQ race, later tossed)
Joe Wergers Utopia 3 2 3 3 3

In the Catalina 250 Class

RxScape 1 1 1 1 1
CAngel 2 2 DNS DNS 2

Conclusion - C25s much faster than C250s, Scott and I were ahead by 5 minutes or more in every race. No contest. We scored the C250s in their own class. C250s should be handicapped much higher.

Conclusion - Joe Wergers improved his sailing more in this one weekend racing than in a year of sailing Utopia solo. He went from dead last and way behind to actually challenging Scott in the last race on Sunday.

Conclusion - Spinnaker boat beats non-spin boat almost every time even with giving 19 seconds/mile. Scott sailed a very good race on Saturday getting line honors in one race (super light air, Scott sailing wing and wing straight at the mark, us gybing the asym all over the ocean). Indiscipline had line honors in every other race even the practice race Thursday. Scott covered handicap in race 1 in a very close finish a matter of seconds apart. Good racing. Scott had line honors in race 3. Again good racing. What I came for. The rest were not even close.

Indiscipline was denied use of spin pole on Saturday (the W/L day) and sailed windward/leeward legs with the asym poleless. Indiscipline repaired pole Saturday night. Indiscipline made up 5 minutes between starts, caught and passed most of the Catalina 30 Jib and Main fleet in every race. I felt very good about our performance and teamwork.

Capri 25s

Toxic Haste winner.
Zoom Zoom

I know Zoom Zoom won one of the W/L races Saturday and it was a horizon job. These crews were rafted up at night and having a ton of fun. We were with them, too. Great spirit between the two Capris. It was a SUPER light wind day Saturday with a lot of drifting. Who so ever got the puffs got the win. I believe Toxic Haste got all other wins. Close racing.

Capri 25s much faster than Indiscipline, I never caught up to them. I would have liked a match race or to join the Capri 25 starts to see just how much faster they were. They were started 10 minutes before us so we were never close.

I was going to let Scott tell his story but we got protested on Friday (hearing was Saturday morning) in race 1 and 2 for :

(1) someone besides me driving.

(2) spin pole too long.

Both items were true.

Scott protest in race 1 was invalid because you can't file a protest on the dock at the end of the day, you have to fly the flag and tell the race committee and also the offending boat. The protest for race two almost got tossed because I was not notified on the water, only on the dock after the race. Of course I was 2 miles ahead the whole race so he couldn't tell me. Scott was flying the flag when he came by the finish so it was heard.

Scott also attempted to have a Rule 2 hearing for non-sportmanship and have me tossed from the Regatta for cheating. He had the constitution, bylaws, and class rules all printed out in a little book but the Committee would not hear a Rule 2 hearing. Its not like nobody ever had a long pole before.

My defense was that we agreed that this would be a PHRF race. Any boat with a valid PHRF certificate would not be measured. This was not one design racing. Every boat was handicapped. My pole and sails are declared on my San Diego cert. I had put all this in emails to the competitors. Emails do not count, however, the SIs do, and that said Class Rules would govern, followed by local PHRF rules. The committee decided in Scott's favor, giving him the National Championship. There was no way I could come back from a DSQ, although we tried, we needed Joe to beat Scott on Sunday and that would pretty much never happen. Utopia is not prepared and raced to the level that Indiscipline and Ho o Kolohe are. Joe would freely admit this.

Now I can deal with all this and I admitted that Chris drove and that the pole measured 11 feet.

What made me most upset was the Rule 2 stuff. During the hearing Scott was trying to make the case that I had been commodore and should have known the rules thus was intentionally cheating and should be sent home.

In the hearing I admitted that I (with Duwane Wolfe and JB Manley):

wrote the constitution
wrote the bylaws
wrote the class rules
was commodore for 2 terms
was vice commodore for 1 term
was web master for several years
revised the entire web site and forum
got the Capri 25s included
changed to an International Association
got two short articles in the Mainsheet
organized the 2010 National Championship.

If anyone has done more for this Association I'd like to know who.

Well I have a race to do, the last race for Catalina 25 Indiscipline III. I am leaving for Ensenada Friday morning in PHRF Class 5 Double Handed Divison.

Indiscipline III is sold and Indiscipline IV is very likely to be a Pearson Flyer 30. My offer has been accepted pending survey.

I'd also like to point out that CAngel protested RxScape on Sunday at the downwind mark for a collision. The protest was ruled invalid because CAngel did not fly the flag nor hail the offending boat at the time of the foul. Come on guys, this is racing 101. No flag, no hail -- no protest. Charlie does not even have a red flag.

There were no protests the entire weekend in the Catalina 30 fleets nor the Capri 25 fleet.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 05:52:08

I don't remember the language used, but, as I recall, the rules formerly required that, in order for any boat to race in the C25 national regatta, the entrant had to be a member of the national association and had to own a C25 (not necessarily the boat that he raced). That makes sense, because, if you want to win a trophy paid for by the national association, in a regatta sponsored by the national association, you ought to at least be a dues-paying member.

I don't believe there was ever a rule prohibiting the use of professional crew in the national regatta, but, IMHO, there should be. In the 1983 nationals, a small sailmaker wanted to make a racing reputation by claiming that his sails won a national regatta, and he furnished one of the boats with many bags of laminated racing sails, and hired a professional tactician for the boat. The rules shouldn't allow that.

Also, the rules should require that the owner of the boat be the helmsman after the 10 minute warning and during the race, with the exception that he should be permitted to be relieved for potty needs, or during an emergency. I also think he should be permitted to be relieved of the helm for occasional brief periods of time to assist or direct the crew, so long as it can be fairly said that he was the helmsman during all critical maneuvers of the boat. (He shouldn't be allowed to choose to take a potty break during a crucial mark rounding, for example.)

I don't think it's appropriate to comment on the specific protests in this regatta, because they have been finally decided by the RC, and we shouldn't second-guess them. The RC heard all the evidence and all the arguments, and made their conscientious decision, and Jim has apparently accepted them graciously. Thankfully, protests have been very rare in our national regattas.

My personal policy is that I only protest when another boat hits mine, or in the grossest of violations. I believe that, in the interest of safety, I have a duty to the other participants to protest in such circumstances. My belief is that, other situations are either too difficult to prove or too insignificant to take my attention away from more important tasks of sailing the boat. I only protested once in a national regatta, and have regretted it ever since. I don't want to win a race or regatta by protesting. I want to win it by out-sailing all the other boats. I won't give another boat even an arguable basis to protest me. In a close-crossing, right of way situation, I'll always duck rather than gamble. Why? Because, if I'm wrong, you can't win a regatta with one DSQ out of 5 races. Finally, I don't want any competitor to go home thinking I snatched the championship from him unfairly, and that's always a risk in a protest.

It's clear that this year's national regatta was characterized by very close competition and good sailing, and I'm looking forward to Scott's play-by-play description of the action on the field of battle.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/30/2010 06:04:12

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 06:45:38

Thanks Jim... for everything! Steve--my sentiments exactly. I don't even contest people at 4-way stop signs. I haven't been a skipper on the race-course--just crew--but I don't think I'd feel that great about a National Championship won in the protest room. I also haven't heard of a class association awarding a National Championship to a non-member. If that's not in the association's rules, we might be unique among class associations. (I also don't know whether any of these competitors are members or not, except of course Jim.)

I will say that it makes sense to me that class rules prevail in a class championship. PHRF is a useful add-on given that there are so many variations within our class--keels, masts, and spin/white. But each should measure and be sailed according to the rules. Otherwise you could end up with something that looks more like "funny-car" racing and that ruins the spirit of racing affordable boats.

Not that I believe the pole-length issue is an egregious violation of ethical behavior or something that should send a member home... I just think class rules should rule in the National Regatta.

Jim, you're a stand-up guy! Congratulations on a great run with Indiscipline III--you've made all of us proud and done much for the association! It's clear that you've outgrown her... All the best with Indiscipline IV, whatever she might be!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2010 06:55:17

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 06:47:25

Very interesting thread and report. Clearly the quality and level of sailing was excellent by all involved.

While not at the “Nationals” and only going by the brief description here, I have to say that the protest(s) outlined are very disappointing – and remind me of why I have come to really have a problem (dare I say hate) the direction that “friendly” races/sports are heading. I fully understand that their are rules to “level the playing field” but all too often the line blurs between the legitimate protest and the over the top “win at all costs” protest drama. I have seen kids turned off by coaches yelling and screaming with rule book in hand – trying to get the win – when the kids just want to play. In sailing I have been at enough regattas to see that it only takes one or two ugly protests to destroy long-time friendships.

Not knowing the details but based on the type of race and age of fleet, etc., the notion that anyone would protest on the grounds that someone “intentionally” cheated – in this type of regatta -- is the kind of drama that will only make it more difficult to attract members to participate in the future. Who wants to lug their boat halfway across a state or continent just to be subject to “personal” protests?

Regarding the rules, one that seems a bit strange is that the “owner” must be “the” helmsman. I have been in many races where the owner is crew and delegates the helm to others better qualified – or to help forward with less qualified crew. This should be a friendly race and based on the various threads as to how to get MORE involvement, rules should be viewed, in part, to accomplish involvement as well as fairness.

Again, maybe I am of base or have missed something, but I hope this can be a learning experience that leads to future improvement.

Edited by - bigelowp on 09/30/2010 07:00:55

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 08:40:53

Here is the applicable section from the C-25 class rules:

M. PARTICIPATION

1. Eligibility - Participation in Catalina 25 Class regattas in the capacity of skipper/helmsman shall be limited to owners of Catalina 25 Class sloops and their immediate families. You must be a member, in good standing, of the National Organization to sail in Catalina 25 class regattas.

2. Establishment of Ownership - Ownership is established by the presence of the name of the person in question on the Certificate of Registration of a Catalina 25 or, in the case of a charter, a Certificate of Registration of the charterer's Catalina 25.

3. Partnership - Partnerships are authorized in the Catalina 25 Sailing Association.

a. Sharing the capacity of skipper (co-skipper) while participating in class races is authorized.

b. Those owners having partnerships in yachts entered in any Fleet, Regional, or National Regatta must be able to furnish race officials written proof of ownership upon request.

4. Competitors entering either National or Regional Class association sanctioned regattas shall be Group 1 Competitors as defined by the International Sailing Federation and US Sailing. Group 2 and 3 competitors may sail in these regattas provided they are FULL owners of a Catalina 25. Group 2 and Group 3 competitors should be prepared to show state registration or national documentation indicating ownership. Penalty for this is disqualification.

N. HELMSMAN

1. The helmsman of the Catalina 25 shall be an owner unless emergency or necessity requires that they give up the helm for a short period of time.
________________________________________________________________

The rules are pretty clear - to enter a boat in the national regatta, the owner must be a member of the national association, and the helmsman must be an owner or member of the owner's immediate family.
There is some ambiguity in the ownership term with regard to the helmsman. Like the C-22 class rules, it does seem to allow the owner of a C-25, who is a member of the national association, to race another C-25 boat with the owner of the racing boat serving as crew, or to charter a C-25 and race it in the regatta.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/30/2010 08:43:52

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3321 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 09:27:56

" The helmsman of the Catalina 25 shall be an owner unless emergency or necessity requires that they give up the helm for a short period of time".

Note that it says "AN" owner, not "THE" owner.
In the 2000 Nationals in Utah I helmed Vern Gagne's boat in all 6 races as he had no racing experience. It was agreed by the RC that this was legal.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 11:07:45

That is correct Derrick - An owner must be the helmsman not specifically the owner. That was the intent of the rules when I helped redraft them. Done so that those who were not able to drive their own boat because of logistics, travel, or otherwise could charter, rent or share helming.

As for the spin pole, If in fact it is declared on the PHRF certificate it would be allowed if the wording of the SI's so indicated that either

1. Phrf rules superced class rules...or
2. Local PHRF Authority rating shall be used, any boats without will be assigned. Meaning the guy with the smaller pole would have a lower rating. Also might note that non local phrf certificates would need to be reviewed and an equivalent local rating may be assigned. Protest for rating disagreements would need to take place before the very first race.
3. Notation regarding pole length in the Class rules was waived.

Question is - if you knew he was going to protest you after day 1 why wasn't the issue corrected by either borrowing a pole, shortening a pole or just not used. If you were two miles ahead, a longer whisker pole, which is allowed on the headsail would have almost definitely kept you in the lead.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 12:18:49

I am not disputing that my helmsman on Day 1 was Chris. George is the owner of a Cat 25. He wrote to me a long time ago and offered to come crew. At the end, he could not make it. So one of his crew came all the way from New York to crew for Indiscipline and learn to make a C25 faster. On day 1 we went to practice. We had a tangle on the spin halyard before race 1 and I went to clear it. Chris took the helm. Before it was cleared the race started. I told Chris to sail with the sails he had up while I worked it. After it was cleared he just stayed there - I often do foredeck on my boat.

George is an owner and Chris is not family.

The committee did have the class rules and did want to know how long Chris was at the helm after I cleared the tangle. 90 minutes was my answer (we just stayed in those positions).

So I was going to get tossed for that. I knew this rule was in the books but I could not imagine anyone protesting for that. The C30s have it to and they ignored it.

I wanted a ruling on the pole and our SIs clearly state the Class Rules take precedence over local PHRF. So they ruled the pole invalid. We did not use it on Saturday (when it was needed most in the W/L races). Saturday night we took it to my house and cut it down, missing the party with Frank Butler and Sharon Day.

After all this I asked Scott if there were going to be anymore equipment protests. He said he would just wait to see what we did on the water. I expected to be protested for the inner jib tracks or be subject to all kinds of sail measurements. If that happened I planned just to take an RAF.

This was not the way I planned to run the regatta, but class rules are class rules. I don't care. I know which boat was fastest, and which boat won the starts (every start but race one when we had the tangle).

This is all I am going to say on this so enjoy the Nationals next year.

Now you all know I am stepping up in boat and in class and am going to be a real competitor in San Diego PHRF Class 5. Not a joke like I am now. So I'm sure there will be other protests. This was a good learning experience.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 14:22:29

Best wishes Jim, and thanks a million for all that you have done for the Association. I am looking forward to your posts in the admiralty forum.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2010 : 15:51:47

Remember Scott did not protest until the end of Day 1. I did not hear about it until we were all on the dock at 6 PM after all races. The hearing was the morning of Day 2, 60 minutes before the start.

I had no idea we were going to play the game this way. But OK.

Scott even came down a month or two ago and I took him sailing so he could see my boat and learn San Diego. I offered him to use my asym and I said I would provide halyard, sheets, tackline, and everything needed. The best and newest sail on my boat. He declined and prefered to take the 19 seconds.

I thought this was going to be a fun race and not so serious. I mean we only had 3 boats racing, and these are not race boats to begin with. 2 of the 3 had spinnakers, though, so we decided to race PHRF with non spin offset for Scott.

Edited by - on

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