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Windows (again) question

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/20/2002 : 20:20:27

Well, we had a real "soaker" of a Florida rainsorm, and the admiral's forward quarters stayed dry. Score one for our side! However, moving along briskly, the captain's saloon would serve nicely for the indoor shower everyone thinks about, you could raise orchids. The P.O. tried to fix the stbd forward window by slathering silicone around, apparently with a pointing trowel, to negative effect. I plan to pull the window when there is a dry spell of some duration. It LOOKS as if the inner trim ring, which has a dozen or so small screws facing outboard, would be removed, and then one could eject the outer trim ring to the outside. Then I ASSUME one tries as best to clean up the mess, remove all old caulk, apply butyl or polysulfide caulking, and put the parts back together, re-screwing from within. I wish there were a good picture story of this in the tech tips, and if I were not computer idiot, I would take pictures as I go along. I WILL take pictures, and maybe I can send them to someone who could post them. All advice on this job will be very gratefully received, from...Ron srsk #2343 SW FLA 1981 Trad INT. Thanks.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 22:42:50

Ron,

Last year for Christmas my daughter gave me a Vinyl Window Molding kit that Catalina Direct has. The page in their catalogue states, "If you have a Catalina 25 with aluminum windows, you've probably been looking for this!" (page 4.48)

I seem to have the same problem you've discribed, and planned to install this this year, but other priorities always seemed to get in the way, and now the kit sits on my desk at the lake house, and the project is on my to do list for next year.

You might to check it out, and perhaps someone who has addressed the problem will reply to your post and share how well or not well this kit worked.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 10:45:12

Ron,
You're on the right track, but there's a another surface that is key for making your windows watertight. The outer surface of the glass has a rubber gasket that fits between the glass and the window frame. Over time that gasket hardens and shrinks. There are sealant technologies available today that weren't when the boat was built. I went to an automotive glass store and purchased a buytl/rubber product (not a urethane product!) It comes in a caulking tube. I notched a plastic spreader (or use a plastic spoon) to form a bevel on the caulk.
Yes, eliminate all of the silicone (then give us a testimony why you shouldn't use silicone on applications such a this <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>) and apply polysulfide between the frame and the cabin and you should be leak free! Once you remove the windows it should be pretty apparent what has to be sealed.
Good luck!

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 17:23:43

Silicone silicone silicone God Im tired of hearing that. 1) Silicone is not wterproof and over time will absorb moisture. It will then begin to seperate or loose its bond from aplied surfaces. 2)Silicone must be cleaned of with a strong chemical. Once it has been used it contaminates whatever it has been used on. Education about sealants and then making the right choice is the only way stop a leak.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

Daniel
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 17:25:16

I have some experience with the old-style windows on a 1980 C25. I have solved the leaks by the following:

- replaced the forward old sliding window with a fixed one (some have replaced with Lewmar opening hatches,but this requires some easy enlarging of the window cutout).

- used putty tape (from RV store) to gasket the area between window frame and cabin outside when installling the windows. I like this better than polysulfide caulk and it is far easier to remove and makes a very good seal, at least in my case. Apply tape when warm (indoors if necessary) to the frame, then use a dull spackle knife to trim excess.

- replaced the old vinyl spline that surrounds the window glass with the new material from Catalina Direct. HOWEVER, this did not make a very tight seal so I then had to take the window apart and apply silicone to both sides of the spline surface (facing out) to keep the water out. This detail was not mentioned by CD.

Some have instead used a flowable silicone (for windshields) on both sides of the spline and had good results. This definitely helped but it was a bit hard to get good coverage without taking apart the window entirely

I found removing the window, dissembly and reassembly to be pretty easy.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/21/2002 : 22:37:15

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
- replaced the old vinyl spline that surrounds the window glass with the new material from Catalina Direct. HOWEVER, this did not make a very tight seal so I then had to take the window apart and apply silicone to both sides of the spline surface (facing out) to keep the water out. This detail was not mentioned by CD.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This outside spline seems to be misunderstood quite often - even by Catalina Direct apparently. Even though the glass is epoxied to the frame on the inside surfaces it is not a watertight seal. Some people have replaced the inside vinyl strip thinking it would stop their leaks; when, in fact, it is purely cosmetic. It's the gap between the outside surface of the glass and the frame that must be made watertight.

Edited by - OJ on 11/22/2002 14:45:18

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2002 : 11:53:45

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's the gap between the outside surface and the frame that must be made watertight. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Do you mean the gap between the gelcoat and the frame, or the gap between the glass and the frame?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2002 : 14:42:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's the gap between the outside surface and the frame that must be made watertight. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Do you mean the gap between the gelcoat and the frame, or the gap between the glass and the frame?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Sorry <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>, good catch Steve. Since both have to be water tight let me explain both for clarity:

Between the gelcoat of the cabin top and the frame = polysulfide

The gap between the outer surface of the glass and frame = butyl caulking.

Edited by - on

Daniel
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2002 : 18:28:16

In my case the window glass was not epoxied to the inner frame surface. The glass was held in the frame exclusively by the vinyl spline ('weatherstrip'). You surround the glass edge with it, then insert the affair into the aluminum frame. At least on my house windows there is the same arrangement - and no caulking anywhere on any surface. The vinyl material alone around the house windows does seem to keep the weather (water) out, but the same can't be said for the boat windows. I suspect the vinyl was not the right gauge, but I don't really know. I like the idea of using the butyl caulk or other material some have mentioned , since as Douglas pointed out silicone is very difficult to remove.

Yes, there is a second vinyl strip that is purely cosmetic on the inside of the frame (which is also sold by C Direct) but it clearly has nothing to do with keeping water outside.

I think there were at least two or possibly more kinds of window frames used on the earlier C25. I once saw a 1981 with original aluminum window frames that looked different from mine - seemed like a somewhat better design. But most older boats I see look like the type I have.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2002 : 20:04:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
In my case the window glass was not epoxied to the inner frame surface. The glass was held in the frame exclusively by the vinyl spline ('weatherstrip'). You surround the glass edge with it, then insert the affair into the aluminum frame.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Interesting that your glass was not held in place by epoxy . . . very interesting.
When I epoxied my new glass (upgraded to tinted) into the frames I had to make miniature shims to bend and hold the the glass to match the curvature and twist of the frame until the epoxy cured - then I applied the buytl. If there's nothing holding the the glass in place while applying the caulking, I would think you'd certainly have to use shims as well.
BTW, for what it's worth - sometimes people apply cleaners and/or brighteners to the teak hand rails while they're attached to the cabin top. If these chemicals run down onto the aluminum window frames it can damage the anodized finish. I had mine reanodized while I had everything apart.

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