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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Boat sinks, lessons to be learned

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/12/2010 : 12:58:24

Quite a few of the boats at our club went to Newport, Oregon for the Columbus Day Regatta. Weather was very stormy and one boat, a Sanatana 20, did not return. Here is a description from one of the regatta participants.

"Getting ready for the second start. Winds stead velocity of about avg. 20 kts. gusting to +30, some long, some short, some shifty, some all of the above. Highest wind speed recorded during racing hours was 42kts. In the meandering before the start, in the prep period, Doug chose to jibe for whatever reason before the start, likely for position, etc. Attempted the jibe, got hit with big, sustained gust, boat jibed but main didn't. Thus putting crew on the now low side, sail full and high as gust rolls the boat, likely heavy on the bow from the low crew and high main. This instigated a roll/pitch action quickly to a turtle position, Doug underneath, no PFD. From the comments of other S20 sailors present, I assume here that the typically unsecured hatches up front are now sucking up quantities of water. Second gust pushes keel over, lets Doug out (or he gets out on his own, not sure) and causes boat to burp out its floatation air and then down it went ( or so I am told by committee and/or Doug). Whole thing took about 60 secs. and it was under. Crew now in the water, YBYC chase boat towing Club 420's to shore, USCGA boat 1 busy with other legit. business (don't recall what) and USCGA boat 2 en-route to scene. Crew picked up by small fishing boat in the immediate area. Thank you fishing boat. You caught a valuable load.

I'm told Lat/Long. was recorded at point of sinking. Divers investigated that location on Sunday and did not find the boat. With sails up, and tides running strong, the assumption is, it is sub-sailing the bay."

The skipper is an experienced Santana 20 sailor with a good race record. Fortunately no one was lost or hurt.

We cannot direct the winds but we can adjust our sails.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 10/12/2010 12:58:55

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 13:46:07

Did they continue the race?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 13:49:16

Yeah! the heck with the stinkn' boat that sank - who won the freakn' race?

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 14:01:13

Jibing with gusty winds is one of the most dangerous moves, even on our relatively stable Catalinas. On a light racing boat like a Santana 20, it's even trickier.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 14:37:05

Wow, glad no one was hurt. I've learned to tack when in heavy air, it just feels like you're in more control, and it's not as scary for the crew.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 15:27:52

I could be wrong, but don't they call 42kt winds "Small Craft Advisories"?

My heart goes out to the skipper who lost his boat, but he and his fellow racers knew they were taking a huge risk. He was just unlucky. Good thing he and his crew were not killed or injured, as he'd likely have lost more than a boat in the civil lawsuit.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 17:28:42

Bruce, according the the National Weather Service, a small craft advisory is issued with sustained winds or frequent gusts ranging between 25 and 33 knots. A gale warning is 34 to 48 knots.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 10/12/2010 17:30:59

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 20:14:24

Racing was canceled. A couple of boats were demasted. They searched for three days with divers and can't find the boat.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 20:15:10

We had a few races this summer with winds in the 40 kt range. Iris came through fine but we needed some sails repaired.

After the races many sailors were upset that teh events hadn't been cancelled outright. The RC pointed to rule 6 (?) which states that it is up to the skipper to decide whether to race or not. I agree. You know your limits and you decide whether to go out or not. In one of the races I packed up my tos and quit about halfway through. In the others I toughed it out. Its up to you to know when you have had your share, not up to the RC to tell you.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/12/2010 : 21:16:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...Its up to you to know when you have had your share, not up to the RC to tell you.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not sure I agree... No, I'll restate: I don't agree. I've mentioned a local skipper who died in a thoroughly-predicted weather front. Who knows what his decision process was, but if the season series or regatta includes last-place+1 scores for all DNFs during gales, there's pressure to sail when you otherwise wouldn't. 35+ knots is officially "gale force", and [ MHO ] club racing does not belong in those conditions, and most club racing boats are in no way designed for it. It shouldn't be a contest of who can survive and how little damage you can manage to sustain--it should be who can race well in conditions that are not threatening to lives and property. Fastnet and Sydney-Hobart racers know what they're getting into and are equipped and experienced for it. I've known some, and they're a different breed. Their boats are meticulously prepared and inspected for safety equipment and characteristics. Your typical PHRF club crew is not from that breed and shouldn't have to be. Clubs that encourage gale force racing are culpable for the outcomes. A series that includes such conditions is a series that encourages and rewards life-threatening behavior. [ /MHO ]

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/13/2010 06:45:27

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2010 : 06:42:50

As is often true, there's enough blame to go around here. The decision by the race committee to continue the race was at least borderline, and probably wrong in this instance. Racing in 20 or 25 kts. is doable in bigger boats, but I think it's too much for small, lightweight boats. A race committee should first consider the safety of all the participants, and they should understand that the desire of some skippers to win a little trophy might impair their judgment. Thus, the race committee should make a prudent judgment.

I agree that the ultimate responsibility rests with the skipper. I don't think his burning desire to win a little plaque or a symbol of victory alters, in any way, that responsibility. When one is charged, legally and morally, with the safety of his passegers, one's desire to win shouldn't even be a consideration, and I wouldn't sail with a skipper who did otherwise. In deciding whether it's safe to race, a skipper shouldn't be calculating the points that he needs to win the regatta. It has no place in the decision.

The crews of those boats had two opportunities to be protected from the hazards. The race committee could have protected them, and the skippers could have protected them. The crews were let down by both.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/13/2010 06:46:24

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2010 : 09:41:52

Can't stand the heat..

Ted turner

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 10/13/2010 : 10:02:51

I was RC this summer and canceled a race. What surprised me was the attitude of some of the racers. Before I made my final decision, which was about 5 minutes before the emergency sirens went off, they were all like "Ah, it's going to pass east of us...let's race." This is while there was a tornado on the ground in a neighboring town. As it was they were right. A twister touched down and did slight damage to homes on the east side of the lake, about a half mile away from our marina and just several hundred yards from the starting mark on land. This is a pic of that twister, taken by another YC member.

On this day, 6 tornadoes touched down in the Dallas area. And these guys still wanted to race. Not on my watch.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Compiled From Staff Reports
DALLAS (CBS 11 / TXA 21) #8213;

Six separate tornadoes capped off a wild day of weather in North Texas on Wednesday, as the area reeled from the remnants of Tropical Storm Hermine. Early Thursday afternoon, the National Weather Service confirmed the sixth tornado. It hit Cooke County late Wednesday evening.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 20:43:53

I stand corrected - gale warnings. I think that reinforces my point. Not sure if it was too much adrenaline or too much testosterone. Either way the skipper took a big [dum-bass] chance, and now he's minus his boat. Sorry.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2010 : 14:12:48

Yeah, what I don't get is this: "Winds stead velocity of about avg. 20 kts. gusting to +30....Doug underneath, no PFD." That's just irresponsible.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/18/2010 : 18:14:08

They found the boat and will attempt to raise it later this week. Here is a picture of the sonar.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2010 : 07:58:30

The race boat I went out on, you had to wear a PFD to start and end the race or you were disqualified.

Edited by - on

Ed Everts
Deckhand

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USA
1 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2010 : 14:40:19

I am the owner and operator of the small 22' Thunder Jet fishing boat that pulled 2 of the 3 crew members out of the water when there sailboat capsized and sank. I was about a 300 yards away when I seen the boat violently flip on its side from winds out of the south. I could see that they were in trouble right away and we were the only powered boat in the immediate proximity. I had 3 others on board my boat and I quickly informed them that we needed to go help. When we arrived next to the half submerged sailboat the 3 crew members were hanging onto what appeared to be the steering rutter of at the back of the boat. We quickly threw our life ring over to them with a rope attached and pulled over the apparent owner which was in the green rain gear.Right after we started retrieving the first crew member the boat just slipped under the water nose first pointing south and disappeared in 30 feet of water at high tide approximately.We then quickly retrieved a second crew member and after pulling the second member into our boat the Coast Guard Assist boat arrived and retrieved the 3 crew member out of the water.From the time the boat flipped and all 3 members were safely picked up was about 15 to 20 minutes.All 3 were in good condition with no apparent injury other than being cold and wet.
I wanted to let the crew of the sailboat know that we are sorry about their loss and privileged to be of help in a time of need.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2010 : 17:25:49

Ed, thank you and I will post this information to a forum that I know the owner follows. You may want to look there too. Google "Fernsail"

The boat was raised on Friday but is apparently a wreck. Here is a post that the owner posted today. Sad ending for the boat but thanks to your help the crew is OK and that is the important thing.

"The Jacq is back, but not how I envisioned. I doubt she will sail again. We accomplished what we set out to do this weekend and salvaged all our stuff and sails from it. The past 2 weeks it has been stuck in the mud and digging a crater as though she was swinging from an anchor the divers said. So, the bow was filled with sand and after they placed lift bags and inner tubes on it she was stuck.. A 108' trawler, The Rebel, came to help and the current was now ebbing and made things difficult. Attached a line on the hoist bridle and Rebel used her crane to break the Jacq free but who know what happened next? We assume it started floating up, Rebel struck the mast and we lost it at the shrouds. The rudder was stuck and bent so bad the transom is ripped out. The bags are in her but not enough to rise to the surface and we drifted 3/4 mile and the bridge was looming, decisions had to be made fast. We were able to tow it with a 31' aluminum fishing boat across the river to the trident processing plant. The Rebel takes the fish waste stuff from a cat food plant over the bar to dump it ( think about that- stuff they do not put in cat food- imagine the odor) so she lifted the Jacq onto her deck like the big Tuna she is. Destroyed the boat in the process but she was a goner before that so I only wanted to get her out of the river. Too much sand pulled the bow down so the water/sand would not drain. Too dangerous to get in there with a pump and we only wanted her out. Too heavy to lift but after the deck separated no problem anymore and over the rail she goes. We removed the mast sails and all and the One Eye Jacq got to take one more trip out to the ocean this morning the skipper told me. A rough crossing in 16-20' seas and on the way back stopped at the port dock to lift her off and on to my trailer. I now have another project and will have plenty of gear after stripping her. She is home at EYC now for her viewing this evening at the 20 banquet."

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2010 : 18:17:05

Sad story. A salute to Ed Everts--you are a true mariner.

Edited by - on

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