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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

swing keel pivot

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jhinton
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/14/2010 : 16:42:26

This may sound like a stupid question and I'm sorry if it is... But I was at our boat (1982 SK/SR) the other day and was looking at the swing keel from below when I started thinking that all that is holding that 3/4 ton mass of a keel on there are four small bolts that are screwed into two other pieces of metal that are fiberglassed into the hull.

It seems to me that this pivot point would be a very weak point in the boat. Do they ever break? Are there any stories of them failing?

This is our first year with the boat so we're still learning!

1982 C-25, SK/SR, traditional interior

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 16:56:25

I've not heard of the pivot pin failing...lifting cables YES...others will chime in

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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 17:16:18

One of our local C22 came off it's mooring and went ashore then the wave action turned the boat and the keel came off. It was repaired and has sailed bor many years. The biggest job was getting it up out of the mud from the suckion and then carring it to a pickup. How would you get a C25 keel up out of mud?

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2010 : 19:16:06

Do not worry about the four bolts, 6000 boats 20-35 years old, failure of that system is almost unheard of. However, I did sell my '82 swinger for an '89 wing, sleep tight.

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Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2010 : 15:41:17

The four bolts that screw into the four separate tangs embedded in the fiberglass that hold on the keel are not really all that small. I'm not an engineer but I know that one of them alone is capable of supporting that much weight. Four are used because of all the lateral stresses involved in sailing and the increased weight when the hull falls off a wave, slams into the trough and jerks the keel. As Frank says, the sudden un-forced falling of a keel from the front on one of these boats is unheard of. Having confidence in your boat - which is important for peace of mind when voyaging - comes from a combination of things. Use of it over time is one and following the recommended maintenance for the keel system on the C25 is another - that's where a forum like this is so helpful and also to share the experiences of others on a similar vessel. A yearly check of the areas of stress for cracks or de-lamination by someone who knows fiberglass may also give you some peace of mind if you don't know how or what your looking for. You can also do things to lessen the stress like always keeping some weight on the cable to share the weight - yes, learn to love the humm. This also helps prevent damage to the keel 'bucket' by limiting the movement of the falling of the keel - if per chance it should happen - after being drug over an underwater obstacle that lifts it. Also at anchor or on a buoy if the wind is blowing and it's rockin' I keep the keel up tight to take more weight and stress off the front. Knowing all the conditions I sailed it in and all the stress it took (with only 3 bolts really holding) before I did all the parts replacement, I do take care of it but certainly don't worry about it at all and sleep very well aboard. Also the fact of the many years so many of these boats have been sailing in all conditions - and the constant enthusiasm and appreciation for them - as a testament to their strength and durability gives you further peace of mind. This past summer - we had such funky weather out here in the NW this year - there were a number of nights where in a normally protected achorage, storms came up and winds 20-30 kts. blowing through the opening had us straining on the buoy or anchor (well secured on either) and we would be really rocking fore and aft. I never sleep better. The wind would howl, the rig would shudder and I just pulled the blankets up tighter. I don't think a few more bolts and some glue could have possibly made me sleep any better. Interrestingly, for whatever reason we had more stormy, irregular weather patterns this year than I ever remember. We always listen to the weather stations on the VHF before and during a trip and the NOAA forcasts online but it doesn't always go according to plans. Several times we delayed heading out and had one voyage this summer where the night before we planned to head home from Sucia Island a storm moved in and it blew 25 -35 all night and all the next day and night - too rough even to get off into the dinghy to go ashore - and finally headed home early the following morning. Ended up spending 42 hours straight on the boat - after already being out for 3 days. Good thing I had thrown in the portable DVD player and a couple videos (and had emptied the port-a-potti before we left). We always bring extra provisions for just such an occasion and sailing in water that has an ambient temp. of 45 deg. keeping things cool (either under the setee or in the cooler) is really not an issue (I know some of you would be amazed at how well the cooler works with just a frozen gallon jug here in the NW). We are also very fortunate that when my wife goes in to work (I'm self-employed) a 1/2 day late - after an early morning cell phone message of course - she is commended by here employer (who is a boater) for having made the smart decision for a vessel our size.
Have confidence, sail freely.

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jhinton
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2010 : 16:05:07

Thank you for the replies! I do enjoy this forum and hearing stories from people all over and I greatly appreciate the information.

Tim- How much do you crank up the keel to keep some weight on the cable? As you sail, you normally sail with it humming?

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Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2010 : 17:01:41

From slack I usually crank back up 1 1/2 - 2 turns, just so I start feeling some weight back there. Humming is good, the variation in pitch is like a knot meter. If it is slack, it flogs with a more violent action than the vibration from the humm, wearing out the keel attachment and spot where the end is swaged on the cable.

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jhinton
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2010 : 17:21:12

I always have tried to avoid the humming but that's interesting... I never thought of it as a good thing, taking some stress off of the pivot and reducing the flogging of the cable. I'll give that a try. Thanks!

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dacc
1st Mate

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USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2010 : 16:41:14

Thanks so much for posting your experiences, Tim!

I bought my boat Windhorse on the hard and had the yard sandblast, epoxy, and paint the keel. They also checked the pin and put on all new attachments I ordered from CD. The winch also needed replacement, but before I could get a new one on it was time to go back in the water. So my cable has been sitting at the top of the hose in a pigtail with the other end connected to the keel for maybe three months.

Our moorage has plenty of muck and growth down there. We've been gently running aground on it trying to get in and out, so being able to swing up the keel will be really nice for us. I'm concerned about cranking it up the first time without being able to see what's going on below, though.

Is it possible some debris will get in the way? How does it feel on the winch handle when the keel is fully retracted?

I wonder if it would be worth swimming around down there and trying to feel for what's going on...

Best regards,

- Daniel

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2010 : 17:40:43

Your cable is going to be nasty.

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Tim M
1st Mate

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60 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2010 : 15:53:09

Frank is right and that's probably the deciding factor in whether or not to keep your keel up at it's moorage. In certain locations where marine growth is abundant, the growth and the collection of stuff it gathers can make your turning ball become stuck as it gets jammed up in the tube - as well as being a dripping mess wrapped up on the winch. I think Daniel that it would be worth your while - if you're able - to run a rag or sponge down the length of the cable under the boat after it's attached to the winch. You wouldn't have to get it 100% clean but you'll get most of it. I realize sailing helps keep it clean but only to a point and in the right conditions the growth can be rapid. Also, when the keel is fully retracted (25-30 turns)the handle stops turning - don't overdue the pressure.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2010 : 15:54:56

You do not want the keel in the mud and waves pushing the boat around. That could damage the keel trunk. Try to get into deeper water if possible. DEfinitely check it out. Put on a mask & snorkel and go down there with a brush and clean the gunk off of the cable, if it's fouled, before raising the keel.
The winch handle will swing freely when the keel is all the way down. After you get the winch installed and the cable attached, it should take around 30 turns to raise the keel all the way up.

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dacc
1st Mate

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USA
40 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2010 : 10:48:00

Ok, thanks a lot for the advice everyone. I do hope I haven't damaged anything with the running aground. I don't think the keel bumps anything when the boat is unloaded, though, just takes some shouldering into the slip when we have a crew. Hopefully these are more long term issues as you noted, and getting the keel lifted will be sufficient to fix the situation.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.