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Fixn' to purchase cruising sails from Ullman

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/20/2010 : 12:08:50

We decided to go with Ullman for a new suite of cruising sails. Anyone here done this recently and if so - which grade of Dacron did you select? I am being told there are 3 fabric grades, and they are recommending the middle grade.

Edited by - OJ on 10/20/2010 13:17:05

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 12:17:35

How much for the main?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 13:12:16

Peter, if you're into racing, as I think you are, get a dacron racing mainsail, not a cruising sail. It will cost a little more, but you'll be much happier with it. The racing sail will have more sail area, and that will be like having a little bigger "engine" than your opponents. Also, a racing shelf foot and a flattening reef are very useful features on a racing mainsail.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 13:20:35

Steve: Do you recommend a shelf foot over a loose foot? It would seem to me the loose foot affords more shape control--both flatter and fuller.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 13:30:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Peter, if you're into racing, as I think you are, get a dacron racing mainsail, not a cruising sail. It will cost a little more, but you'll be much happier with it. The racing sail will have more sail area, and that will be like having a little bigger "engine" than your opponents. Also, a racing shelf foot and a flattening reef are very useful features on a racing mainsail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That was my plan, just trying to get an idea what people pay for different kinds of sails in different areas. I'm buying my sails from this guy:

http://www.gussails.net/

He has a great reputation here in the area and did a great job patching up my main for almost nothing. According to his site, he's had some success with Catalina 25's

Gene Ferguson - Catalina 25 National Champion
Gene Crosby - Catalina 25 National Champion

and his loft is in my small town. He quoted me $800 to $900 for a dacron sail.

Edited by - PCP777 on 10/20/2010 14:09:11

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 13:35:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Steve: Do you recommend a shelf foot over a loose foot? It would seem to me the loose foot affords more shape control--both flatter and fuller.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A racing shelf foot is an option with either an attached foot or a loose foot. The one on my C25 had an attached foot, but some of my racing friends have them on loose-footed mainsails.

If you give the foot of the mainsail a deep pocket when running downwind, either with or without a spinnaker, or when sailing in light air, it increases boat speed, and, unlike some other adjustments, it's easy to adjust it in and out, which means that you're likely to use it more often.

I don't know your sailmaker, Peter, but he sounds like a good one, and it would be convenient to have him nearby, where he can make repairs for you when needed.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/20/2010 13:43:47

dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 14:11:54

Gus sails is quite reputable, especially with the C-22 crowd. Several national champions have used their sails. I also had a Gus genoa for our c-22 and liked it very much, and they are on my list for a possible new main for the C-25, when I can afford to buy one.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 16:48:22

I don't think you should ask anyone under the age of 45, most of us are too old to go outside of our comfort zones.

FYI I have bought two mains and one genny from Gary, beautiful work well priced.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/20/2010 16:49:39

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 19:44:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 A racing shelf foot is an option with either an attached foot or a loose foot. The one on my C25 had an attached foot, but some of my racing friends have them on loose-footed mainsails.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Then I don't understand the concept of a "loose shelf foot." "Traditionally", the shelf allows the sail with an attached foot to be aerodynamically shaped down to the boom level--as if it had a "fixed" loose foot--instead of being held flat at the boom. Without the shelf, the attached foot causes air close to the foot to flow upwards rather than aft. The true loose foot allows the same shape as the shelf foot, but with more variability from flat to full. Are not the two things alternative solutions to the same problem?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/20/2010 19:45:39

OLarryR
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3467 Posts

Response Posted - 10/20/2010 : 20:24:04

Go with Challenge High Aspect - Less stretch than Challenge High Modulus or Challenge Performance Dacron grades.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 07:16:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 A racing shelf foot is an option with either an attached foot or a loose foot. The one on my C25 had an attached foot, but some of my racing friends have them on loose-footed mainsails.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Then I don't understand the concept of a "loose shelf foot." "Traditionally", the shelf allows the sail with an attached foot to be aerodynamically shaped down to the boom level--as if it had a "fixed" loose foot--instead of being held flat at the boom. Without the shelf, the attached foot causes air close to the foot to flow upwards rather than aft. The true loose foot allows the same shape as the shelf foot, but with more variability from flat to full. Are not the two things alternative solutions to the same problem?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, I have never seen or heard a technical explanation of the loose-footed mainsail with a racing shelf foot. I suspect most racers who have them use them without knowing exactly how and why they work.

As I understand it, the shelf isn't what causes air close to the foot of the mainsail to flow upwards. That effect is caused by attaching the foot of the sail to the boom. That effect is called the "end plate effect." The loose-footed mainsail with a racing shelf foot doesn't create an end plate effect. Rather than being attached to the boom, the shelf foot is simply an extension of sailcloth that hangs over the windward side of the boom. There is no end plate. Thus, on a loose-footed mainsail, the racing shelf foot extends the sailcloth below the boom, which increases the sail area without requiring an adjustment in the boat's racing handicap rating.

It may be that, if you adjust the mainsail in such a way that the shelf is too pronounced, you might create an end plate effect, but that doesn't detract from the fact that you get more sail area with a shelf foot. It simply means that you shouldn't adjust it so that you create such a deep pocket in the foot of the sail.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 08:04:33

OK, I Googled "loose shelf foot sail" and found nothing but discussions of the the loose foot versus the shelf foot, including by sailmakers like [url="http://www.fxsails.com/article_loosefoot.php"]this one[/url]. It still looks to me that if there's a shelf foot, it by definition isn't loose, and conventional wisdom currently is that loose is better for shape control (although, as always, some disagree).

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 08:57:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 [quote]Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 OK, I Googled "loose shelf foot sail" and found nothing but discussions of the the loose foot versus the shelf foot, including by sailmakers like [url="http://www.fxsails.com/article_loosefoot.php"]this one[/url]. It still looks to me that if there's a shelf foot, it by definition isn't loose, and conventional wisdom currently is that loose is better for shape control (although, as always, some disagree).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The Dickison article, which has been around for awhile, primarily discusses the pros and cons of the loose footed sail vs. the attached footed sail. It only discusses the shelf foot incidentally, and it seems to assume that a shelf foot is only found on mainsails with an attached foot. I have sailed on boats with loose footed mainsails that the owners said had a shelf foot, and that appeared to have a shelf foot, and have discussed the option of a shelf foot with North staff at boatshows.

I suspect that what was once known as a shelf foot has "evolved" into a slightly different creature, because of the differences between the attached footed mainsail and the loose footed mainsail, but that it's general purpose and function is so similar that it is still called a shelf foot.

With regard to shape control, the author of the Dickison article says the sail with an attached foot offers better shape control, because it "...allows the mainsail to have a conventional shelf-foot built into it." In fact he says that is "The only true advantage" to the attached footed mainsail.

The author also says, "...the majority of sail designers these days favor loose-footed mainsails." His implication is that sailmakers like the loose foot because it is cheaper and easier to manufacture a sail with a loose foot than with an attached foot. He goes on to say, "Neither concept (attached foot vs. loose foot) offers a significant performance advantage under sail for most types of boats, but the loose-footed approach can provide significant advantages from a maintenance and equipment handling standpoint." I agree with all that. I never found a loose footed mainsail that could outperform my North racing mainsail with an attached foot and shelf foot.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/21/2010 08:58:59

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 10:30:45

OK Steve... You recommended OJ get a shelf foot. I wondered whether a loose foot might be a better alternative. You said he could get both. I was perplexed, and then could find no reference to the combination. (Since he specified "cruising sails", maybe he doesn't want either, but I still like loose for anyone who likes to adjust sail shape.)

So OJ, ask Ullman about a loose-footed main with a shelf and let us know what they say. Loose, shelf, left or right, I think you'll love your new Ullman sails!

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 12:21:20

SO... we have a great UK main with loads of roach and nice fat shelf in the foot. It is a loose footed sail.

Ease the outhaul and pull in the "leech line" across teh bottom of the sail, and it puckers up a little, producing a nice fat pocket. Release the "leech line" in the bottom of the sail, and give the outhaul a tug and the bottom of the sail goes flat.

I dunno if this is the same as the shelf you guys are thinking of, but it seems to work on my sail. I just don't use it very effectively.

Our other main with the boltrope in the foot is far less adaptable, and does not have any shelf to it at all. Its also a little tired and old.

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DaveR
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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 13:47:32

So you got the UK with the big roach too huh Chris? I've got the same one and like it a lot too, great for light wind. And like you I'm going to have to play with it some before I'm proficient ...........

Did you do an internal outhaul?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 13:59:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 OK Steve... You recommended OJ get a shelf foot. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No Dave, I suggested that Peter, who is into racing, get a dacron racing mainsail, as opposed to a cruising mainsail. The racing mainsail will have a bigger roach, which will add sail area, and I suggested he consider a mainsail with a shelf foot, and perhaps a flattening reef. These are options that any racer should consider, and should discuss with his sailmaker.

As I understand, OJ is primarily a cruiser, and he would probably be very well-served by one of Ullman's excellent cruising mainsails.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 15:02:07

Sorry Steve--I got crossed up. And Chris, that explains it--particularly the "leech line (which I suppose we should call a foot line or a shelf line). I'm envisioning sort of an asymmetric spinnaker between the mast and boom.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 10/21/2010 : 19:33:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 So you got the UK with the big roach too huh Chris? I've got the same one and like it a lot too, great for light wind. And like you I'm going to have to play with it some before I'm proficient ...........

Did you do an internal outhaul?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No. We have a 4:1 external outhaul with micro-blocks running from the end of the boom to the sail with a cleat mounted on the boom. Its a little bit of a trick getting it working in any kind of a blow.

Truth be told, I make my time on pointing and reaching legs and loathe the runs. I usually get the shape I want in the first windward leg, and then apart from tinkering with the backstay, I forget about the sail. I know thats a bad thing, and if I played more, I might do better.

For now though my theory is tight and flat in a blow, and loose and baggy when it dies.

Our biggest lesson this season WRT the main was to make sure your slugs have been replaced sometime in recent memory. We had the all-plastic ones and lost them out in a blow. We replaced with the ones that have a plastic slide and steel shank. I am happy to have something better on the boat, but now I wonder, if the slugs hadn't let go when that gust hit us, what would have happened instead?

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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1778 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2010 : 07:45:23

The value of buying from Ullman -- especially the Ventura CA loft which has Catalina as a customer and a specialty -- is the expertise they have on this very subject. Speak with Gary -- he is a wealth of knowledge and can walk you through all the nuances of racing vs crusing sails and the trade offs regarding materials, cut, etc.

Edited by - bigelowp on 10/22/2010 07:50:23

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