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Capt.Dave
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/01/2010 : 18:20:57

I was wondering if the folks on the forum wouldn't mind helping me out with their opinions, suggestions and answers on a 1988 C25 I looked at today.
She's a wing keel that really appears to be over a foot less in draft length than the newer C250's. I found one spec sheet that said 2'-10" with 1,750lbs of ballast. Shes on a trailer with roller bunks and the owners claims it's a breeze to launch with the tongue extension. I almost purchased a 2007 C250 wing keel on standard wood bunks and it was almost impossible to launch, plus it definitely sat higher on the trailer. The draft on her was 3'-5" w/1,050lbs ballast.
I'm not willing to rope launch, I prefer the wk verse swing or wb but will always be trailering. I've read post that say "they" have no problems in launching but all you have to do is measure the water line to the street and that will tell you the truth. I've been told that for every inch equals one foot you need to back the trailer in. I'm not so sure of this standard, but I believe it's not far off.
The 1988 model I'm referring to has side decks which I like verses the newer models where you need to walk over the cabin. The down side is the aft transom, no walk thru areas. She doesn't have much headroom below but does have a pop-up hatch. The hull condition and outside cosmetics look very good. Sails are good and o/b engine isn't too old. Electronics need to be updated but other than that the asking price of 9K isn't too far from what I'm willing to offer. I'm also curious about her performance if anyone knows. What say you all

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 18:41:02

The C250 is a completely different boat. From what I've read posted by others here, by 1988 the wing had replaced the swing keel, less maintenance issues and only 2" more draft but 250 lbs more weight. Wish I had one, but couldn't find one close enough to buy. Will you be able to keep it in a yard close enough to the ramp so you don't have to raise/lower the mast? Standard or tall rig? You'll want the standard rig if you will have to raise the stick every time you go sailing.
Any chance you could post some pics?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 18:43:01

There isn't anyone on this forum who would not be pleased to own that boat, that pretty much sums it up.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 19:34:19

I love my swinger, but Frank is right - an '88 wing would be a sweet boat. I easily launch my swinger without a line or extender with only a couple of inches difference in draft, and my rear disk brakes seem to tolerate a salt and freshwater dip twice a year. I would probably go with an extender if I launched more often than that. Rumor has it that aligning the wing is more critical on recovery than a swinger, but the wingers don't seem to have much trouble after a short learning curve. I'm sure that some of them will be coming along soon.

Edited by - on

Capt.Dave
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 19:39:17

The mast is standard in size and the current owner uses a simple block and tackle system on an outrigger from the mast. I'm only 12 miles from the ocean and have plenty of land so I'll need to become proficient at that, not a big deal to me. Not sure on how to post pictures, trying.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 20:44:42

This is not a trailer sailor. What I mean is that while you can transport this boat on its trailer but, transport(BIG truck), rigging and launch means an hour of time after you get the boat to the ramp -- and that's AFTER you've had practice doing it. Most C25 owners, if not all, launch their boat in the spring and haul it out in the fall. The same is true for C250 owner's. There are some that park their boats next to the house but, they usually sail for several days at a time once launched. The rigging time is just too much to make daysailing practical.

It sounds like you're describing a swing keel with the keel retracted having a 2'10" draft. That's helpful at launch but you can't sail with the keel up. With the keel down, it draws 5 feet. Take a look at this owner's manual here on the site: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/Cat25Post88scanned.pdf

Probably the closest 25' Catalina that can be called a trailer sailor would be the Catalina 250 Water Ballast. Trailering the boat is a bit easier when you leave all that ballast in the ocean/lake. If you're concerned about the sailing ability of a water ballasted boat, some would say that it sails more like a full keel boat than the wing keel version. That's because the ballast is distributed over a great area for and aft. Remember, those huge cargo boats you see offshore use water ballast.

I have a 250 wing keel. I think "walking over the cabin" to be far easier/more convenient that the skinny side decks on the C25s that I've walked on.

We all love our boats here and would recommend them to anyone. Having said that, I think you should look closely at a C-22. That really is a trailer sailor.

Good luck with the search. Enjoy the ride.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3463 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 21:02:42

I have an '89 wing keel and it is a fine boat. I have had it for over 5 years and have made a lot of improvements - Check my website. The wing keel does have a 2' 11" draft. I do not trailer the boat - I keep it in the finger slip year-round and if temps are okay, I sail year-round. It only comes out for an annual pressure wash and a multi-year paint job every 4 years or so - will be doing it next fall.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/01/2010 21:03:26

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 11/01/2010 : 22:09:24

I have the swing keel and roller trailer with a brake on the winch. Launch is done by letting the boat roll off with the rear fenders wet up to the top,30 inches of water. I sail mostly on lakes but also in the Pacific. Set up or down takes an hour with no interruptions or weather. It is a tall rig and I am still able to complete the in and out by myself. Wonder if with the wing keel you just have to float the hull until the keel clears the trailer. Roller trailer I have has 64 rollers.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 05:41:45

As everyone has said it's a fine year for the 25, and the price is right as well. It's a good idea to get a survey. May cost a few hundred but could save you much more if it uncovers major problems with your purchase!

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 06:30:58

We have a wing on a trailer that has bunks instead of rollers and we don't have significant issues launching and hauling. As long as you have a vehicle that can do the job and a ramp with enought water/ramp, it's not an issue. Probably with most boats it takes a few times to get a method that works for you and the ramp/location.

Before I went to the trouble of a survey, you might just try to find a local person that knows something about boats that can take a look at it. IMHO While a survey is a very good idea, if you have no experience looking for issues, you have to weigh that against the cost of a survey and the price of the boat. I have seen several opinions on that issue. It's one of those things where nobody's wrong. It's a personal thing.

We have very shallow water around here so we have to find a deep water ramp that is long enough to float her. The only one around us is a 17 mile drive and a 3 hour motor across water to where we dock her. (We raise the mast at the dock because of branches over the ramp) Like it was said above it sounds like most people don't launch every time. We launch about Easter and haul about Thanksgiving.

That's a pretty good price (especially with a trailer) but that all depends on the condition of course.

As far as your question about performance: I only have experience with the wing but this is what I've heard/read on this forum. The wings don't point as well as a deep keel. That holds true for most shallow draft boats. So (I am guessing) that a swing with the keel down should point upwind better than a wing. I have also read that the difference isn't significant unless you are racing???

I have also heard that water ballast boats tend to roll more since the "ballast" is water and the weight isn't "felt" until the ballast starts coming out of the water to some degree. Hence the boat has to roll more for the ballast to be effective. NOTE: That's only a rumor since I have no experience with water ballast. I'm sure you can find somebody who has expereince with both. I am interested to hear opinions on this issue.

The short comment would be that you would most likely NOT be disappointed with this boat. This assumes she is in good condition without major defects. I went for a wing mainly because of no swing keel maintenance. Again, personal preference. Every thing has it's advantages.

Happy hunting. Boat hunting is an exciting adventure. And a good learning experience.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 07:23:20

Jim Baumgart, one of our most experienced sailors and racers, has had his standard rig/fin keel (SR/FK) next to a tall/wing C-25 many times, and reports very slight performance differences that would only be important to a racer (although the PHRF handicap system evens them out). Of course, whenever two sailboats are on the same tack, there's a race going on.

The C-25 was made up until early 1991, with various improvements over the years. The last and best debuted in 1989, when the cabin gained more headroom due to the elimination of the swing keel (which actually happened a few years earlier). 1988 was a very good year, too.

The C-250 is a very different boat, initially designed to make trailering easier (with the water ballast and centerboard). Water ballast does "work" when the water is still below the waterline--it just has less density and lever-arm than an iron or lead keel. Any weight in a fixed position in the hull has an effect on heeling, no matter where or what it is. The C-250 wing is deeper probably mostly so it could be made lighter by about 700 lbs. without losing too much righting ability. This is in line with the overall design of the C-250 as a lighter, more trailerable boat to compete with its contemporaries in the 1990s.

Correspondingly, the C-25 is the somewhat more comfortable ride in "big water". In any significant wind and seas, it's a little faster, "stiffer", and smoother. On a lake in light air, the C-250 will probably give a standard rig C-25 a good contest, although probably not a tall rig C-25. (Only a few tall C-250s were made, and to my knowledge, one fin keel C-250--all early in the product life.) Of course, the sails and the sailor have a lot to do with racing performance, too!

I'll second the recommendation for a survey (as I always do)... Getting an experienced amateur to look her over is a good idea before making an offer, but the offer should be contingent on a "satisfactory" survey by a professional marine surveyor. For example, the "friend" won't have a moisture meter--key to detecting major problems--and cannot provide the report your insurance company will likely require. If you need a survey for insurance, you might as well let it work for you in the final purchase and price decisions. And it will give you a prioritized list of maintenance issues to address... There are always some.

As for trailer-sailing, I tend to agree the C-25 is a load and a project for day-sailing off a trailer. Go through the entire process with the owner--setting up, launching, retrieving, and taking down--before you assume it's "a breeze". We had a little 17-footer, and after trailer-sailing her for a year, we were ecstatic to get her into a slip!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/02/2010 07:31:29

Capt.Dave
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 11:30:15

Thank you all for your comments, suggestions and opinions. I knew I could count on you guys. Just so you know, I do have one of those "beastly" type trucks, turbo diesel 7 miles per gallon animals. I pull my brothers twin screw fishing boat often and have a little experience in that area. As far as boating experience, I am a four time renewed 100GT Master license holder and have owned many boats, several blue water cruisers. With all that experience I still very much value all your opinions. I currently am a captain with out a ship looking for the right fit for family trips and our budget. We are currently members of a sailing club called Marina Sailing which allows me to bare boat charter all kinds of vessels. From the sleek Beneteau 34s, various Catalina, Hunters and catamarans. Slip rates in So. Cal. are at a all time high, about $13 plus a foot. A storage facility at a launch ramp is about half that but the monthly cost doesn't sit well with me either.
I've actually narrowed my search down to two boats; a trailerable Catalina or (sorry Catalina enthusiats) a fold up Corsair cat. The obvious finacial choice would be the Catalina's which I could buy now, the Corsair will be at least three years from now. The '88 C25 I'm looking at now is in great shape for it's age, the owner is a 78 year old perfectionist who builts small wood boats and RC boats, an amazing person who has physically gotten to an age where he can no longer do this. Which BTW is a lesson to us all, enjoy what you have now. I'll post some pictures of his boat and contact if you all are interested as soon as I can get them on the web somewhere. Thanks again for all your help!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 12:40:06

Oh! Well... Roger that, Cap! Disregard any perceived condescension...

You've got most of us on experience (if not on age)! Just buy the '88--if you want a versatile, capable sailboat that can be hauled around without a permit, the later-year C-25s (87-91) are among the nicest ever made by anyone. And a meticulous PO is a wonderful gift you don't get every day!

Which Corsair? The ones I know are folding tris, and they certainly outrun anything Catalina makes! If you still have the itch in a few years, you'll sell the C-25 for what you paid.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/02/2010 16:18:44

Capt.Dave
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 17:00:52

Ha! ...wasn't trying to pull rank or anything Stinkpotter. Just because I have experience and feathers in my cap doesn't mean I know it all, that's for sure. I owned a swing keel Mac in 1978 when I worked for Eddie Arnolds Sailboats in Newport Beach and know the characteristics of that type of vessel and have sailed a C270 with an inboard diesel(real fine smaller boat)but do not have the experience on these other vessels, you all do. The Corsair was a 28 footer with a steep price of 60K. Yeah they outrun most sailboats but who can afford them?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/02/2010 : 19:20:22

I'm just wrapping up an OUPV ("six-pack") license--finshed a course and passed the test, but need to gather the other paperwork and trek up to Boston. So you'll still out-rank me... (Is 66 a little old to finally know what I'm doing?

)

I've sailed on a lot of boats and a lot of sizes, and the C-25, while getting a little long-in-the-tooth, was/is the best value in its class that I've seen. (Hunter and MacGreggor were cheesy, Compaq was an over-priced under-performer, and Pacific Seacraft was over-built and priced through the roof--a 24-foot blue water passage-maker? Ya, somebody wants that...) As you move up through the size classes, this is the first boat that has the feel of a true keelboat, and has the look of a "yacht", but can still be hauled on a trailer, and was/is priced like a trailer-sailer. It has stood the test of time, as evidenced by this amazing association! ...and maybe even that fact that I'm still here talking about it after selling mine three years ago.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/02/2010 19:24:49

Capt.Dave
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 01:13:53

Pictures

Edited by - on

Capt.Dave
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 03:03:48

OLarryR your improvements on Robin's Nest are awesome! I'm very impressed with the port side bunk extension.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3463 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 04:08:39

Capn Dave - Thanks for the comments regarding the improvements !

Getting back to your original posting - Side decks, low headroom, performance, trailering, etc: I do like having the side decks, though, they are not that wide. The '88 WK you are looking at you indicated it does not have that much headroom. I thought my '89 for a 25' sailboat has fairly decent headroom...I am around 5'10" and that's about what it is as you enter the cabin and then somewhat lower as you go forward. Only thing I really have to watch out for is when passing the cabin bulkhead threashold up forward - The headboard gets me sometimes. Maybe the '88 WK has slightly less headroom than the '89 ? I thought the WK versions had same headroom.

The spec sheet indicates 2'11" draft but I have never actually measured it and I have no experience using a trailer, so cannot help you out there.

As far as performance goes...well I like to do a lot of daysailing/cruising and no racing. If I am out there when the others are racing, I may tag along a bit on the outside of the main event but that is about it. My experience has been that downwind, it performs very well. Do not recall specifics as to how I gaged that and against what other sailboats but I have the TR WK and it was gaining on those boats until they tacked around a buoy and that is when I kept on my original tack. On a close tack to the wind, well....years ago that was my main issue because it was not so much keeping up with the others, maybe gave up a little or hung in there but the big issue was that it would drift more to leeward thatn many of the other sailboats. This probably has to do with the wing configuration to some degree but when you buy a used boat it usually comes with used sails or sails that were never that high quality to begin with as far as sailcloth grade - tend to stretch a lot thru the years. My sails were blown out ! I would be close hauled and I would still see some fluttering. These were the original sails. Dacron is great in that it holds up for many years...but unless it is one of the higher grades of sailcloth, many dacron sails stretch a lot in just 4-5 years and after 10, 15, + years....most sails have seen much better days. I purchased new Quantum sails made of Challenge High Aspect dacron sailcoth. These have less tendancy to stretch over the eyars. But in any case, having new sails, there was a vast improvment when tacking to windward. My point is that whatever ground is lost due to the WK design versus other keel designs is minor compared to using blown out sails. Sail condition is a bigger consideration.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/03/2010 04:27:18

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 06:17:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...The '88 WK you are looking at you indicated it does not have that much headroom. I thought my '89 for a 25' sailboat has fairly decent headroom...I am around 5'10" and that's about what it is as you enter the cabin and then somewhat lower as you go forward... Maybe the '88 WK has slightly less headroom than the '89 ? I thought the WK versions had same headroom.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I believe Catalina introduced the wing in late 1986 (earlier ones are retrofits), eliminated the swing during 1988, and then lowered and flattened the cabin sole to take advantage of no swing keel trunk in 1989.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/03/2010 06:20:10

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 06:39:50

Pics of the boat and trailer look good. Interesting that the o/b is on the <s>starboard</s> port side. Also nice to have the remote o/b control setup. Looks like you may have found an excellent boat.

Edit: correction "port" side, been sick the last few days, thinking is a bit backwards!

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/03/2010 11:53:19

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 08:24:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ...Interesting that the o/b is on the starboard side...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You mean on port? I thought they all were on starboard since about the time Catalina added the cockpit fuel locker that made mounting on port difficult. I liked it on starboard so the outboard tiller handle was toward the center of the boat. Looks like this one had a retrofit--maybe when someone added the control in the cockpit.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/03/2010 08:28:10

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2010 : 10:25:51

One of the serious drawbacks to a Catalina 25 is the width of the transom, it is narrow by modern standards. Therefore the cockpit is narrow, adequately long but narrow. I would rip that control out so fast it would make your head spin. Besides, somethings are just dumb, we had a power boater on here for a short time who put a wheel on the salon/cockpit bulkhead. OMG! It is amazing what some people do to disrespect a boat.

You can find photo galleries for both of my Catalinas here:
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#100045& bgcolor=black& view=grid
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#100041& bgcolor=black& view=grid

Edited by - pastmember on 11/03/2010 10:30:28

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2010 : 10:04:52

I have owned my 1988 C25 tall rig wing for 22 years and can vouch for it's quality and sea worthiness, as I have sailed/raced in all conditions, most recently a race with 40 knot gusts, generally single handed. I have been thoroughly happy with mine over the years, so much so that I have not found the need to upgrade to a larger boat. It meets all my racing and cruising needs, even on Lake Superior where I do most of my sailing.

The draft on my 88'is 2'11" and the hull liner floor is the new design allowing more head room.

Sounds and looks like this may well be the boat in your future.

Edited by - on

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