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sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/04/2011 : 21:12:11

After dragging my danforth anchor last cruise I purchased a hook anchor. After all the cruising in the NW it was a first as it was in a marine park and used the iron ring on the rock shore and the anchor. The event took place after midnight with a strong wind off the beam. So is the hook anchor, 27 lbs, going to work? The bottom was covered with tree scraps and it is a favorite stop but not after dark with many boats and a strong wind.

Edited by - sweetcraft on 01/04/2011 21:13:14

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/04/2011 : 22:44:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sweetcraft
 ...So is the hook anchor, 27 lbs, going to work?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Never heard of it. Can you give us a brand name?

What sort of bottom? What was your scope? How much chain? If you used the two points (shore and anchor) to hold the boat abeam to the wind, there was probably more pull on the anchor than if you'd been head-to-wind on the anchor alone.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/04/2011 22:49:51

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 00:06:21

A claw anchor is other name. The WM store labeled it as a Hook anchor made by Lewmar. It's specs read good but new to me. http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/
Exactly a beam to the wind. Had been there all day with power boats coming in later and they used long lines shore to shore which prevented any one going below them. Interesting re-anchoring after dark which I don't want to do again. Water depth was 10' and I have foot markers in the anchor line for a fair scope. I didn't touch anyone or the bottom but sure got close, whew.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 06:46:08

Jim, I think we've all done that at least once. I have to chuckle because it happened to me and I also narrowly averted contact. You've never seen two people move so fast in your life, haha

Your link is messed up. Are you talking about this?

I'm thinking 27 lbs. might be a little overkill, but a little overkill never hurts

I also think that tree scraps are going to be problematic regardless. Reminds me of trying to anchor here in FL where we have individual clumps of seaweed growth that pull up after a while. Good scope, 25 ft. of chain, a claw style anchor and backing down on the anchor are your best bests in my opinion.

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 07:38:25

Hi Jim,
Your experience might not have been the anchor's fault. Whenever using a stern tie to shore, there is the possibility that a strong wind or current a-beam will drag the anchor because your boat cannot swing and reduce pressure. I had that experience up in Desolation Sound BC a few years ago on a chartered 37 footer with a 46 lb CQR & stern tie to a huge tree ashore. We almost went up on a rocky reef at 0130 in 50 knot winds..... pitch dark and quite frightening...
Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 08:50:16

Help me here, people used to talk about a device that slides down a rode to change the angle of he scope, kell or something like that.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 09:36:17

Kellet. The are effective in light conditions, but are less effective when you actually need the benefit. I agree that not being able to swing and rotting debris are the likely culprits. No anchor can hold a lateral load, and old, decaying debris doesn't offer much bite. A heavy, deep setting anchor is best in those conditions, but it really is poor ground. I was re-reading a thoughtful book on anchoring last night, and the advantages of a rope/chain (20 - 50% nylon line) rode over all chain in heavy weather was very well argued and supported.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 09:52:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 ...the advantages of a rope/chain (20 - 50% nylon line) rode over all chain in heavy weather was very well argued and supported.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--twisted nylon in particular. Its stretch absorbs the shock loads that can yank an anchor loose (and it can make the ride in any kind of waves more comfortable). A snubber can be added to an all-chain rode (after it's set) to do the same, but it's tricky to get that right. Braided rope, particularly double-braid, offers very little shock absorbency. I notice the difference even in my dock-lines.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/05/2011 09:55:58

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 12:55:19

This anchorage is in the Gulf Islands Marine Parks and expected procedure is to use the Park rings for end tie so more boats can use the place. The claw anchor is addition to the other anchors and 20 feet of chain with the 1/2" nylon is used. The Danforth uses a 5 foot chain with nylon line which couldn't hold at that spot. In the dark with many more later boats which put lines all across the anchorage made it tight. Oh yes I was by myself so couldn't yell at anybody. So I will get to try this all again with the Claw. Thanks Dave for the picture. Cruise 2011 here I come.

Edited by - on

KenDavis
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 14:28:46

I've never tied off to shore and anchor before, but would it be possible to bring the line from shore up to a cleat at the bow with the anchor rode? that would allow the boat to turn bow to the wind instead of beam to. my only worry would be wrapping a line around the keel if the boat was moving about much, but if lines were fairly tight, and or wind consistant direction it could work. maybe just a temporary response to high winds.

Happy new year everyone!

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 14:55:07

Hey Jim,
I think that I see where the dragging problem comes from... Just about every knowledgeable person with regard to small boat anchoring recommends that there is the same length of chain as the length of boat.

Twenty five foot long boat should have at least twenty five feet of quarter inch chain. Any less and the anchor's stock will not lie flat on the bottom and let the anchor dig in adequately. This lenght of chain is pretty much regardless of anchor type or size.

So for Snickerdoodle I have a ten pound danforth, twenty five feet of quarter inch chain, and two hundred feet of one half inch three strand nylon. I anchor a lot and have not drug anchor once since 1985 - other than the experience I noted above with a chartered 37 footer in Desolation Sound BC.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 20:24:57

Jim, were you able to "set" the Danforth in that situation? If the junk on the bottom won't allow you to firmly set the anchor in the first place, it isn't going to hold if the pull increases or shifts later on. The amount of chain and scope can affect holding, but proper setting is the best test of whether the whole system (anchor, rode, and scope) is going to work in a given situation. With a little outboard, that means backing down against the anchor with as much throttle as you can give without cavitating excessively. If the scope is insufficient, the chain is too short, or the bottom is just not up to it, you'll find out. Even if the set is successful, lying abeam to a strong wind and waves is going to multiply the force trying to break it out compared to lying head-to-wind.

If you're anchoring among fallen trees and such, be ready to dive in (with a teather) to unfoul the anchor when you need to leave--or else to cut the cord.

Ken's idea has possibilities if the wind and/or current definitely isn't going to shift 180 degrees or more... (That's certainly challenging Murphy!) Then you'd likely get a keel wrap, which is a pain. And if boats are very close to you, they'd have to do the same thing so everyone swings the same way.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2011 : 23:49:44

A 3/8 inch chain length is on each anchor and setting the anchor is my procedure too. The line to shore is after setting the anchor, it is on reel of 600' of floating 5/16" line which I use the dingy to run it thru the ring on shore and return to the boat with the end of the line. They are both tied off with one end used to adjust and get away from being directly abeam to the wind but the anchor drug. The reel makes it quick to retrieve the shore line after releasing the end tied to the boat. I did observe the locals using CQR type anchors which got me to invest in the claw anchor. Oh yes storage of a claw anchor means you should have a bow roller. I hope to not repeat this night re anchoring but still do the drill and stay alert.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 05:28:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sweetcraft
 A 3/8 inch chain length is on each anchor and setting the anchor is my procedure too. The line to shore is after setting the anchor, it is on reel of 600' of floating 5/16" line which I use the dingy to run it thru the ring on shore and return to the boat with the end of the line. They are both tied off with one end used to adjust and get away from being directly abeam to the wind but the anchor drug. The reel makes it quick to retrieve the shore line after releasing the end tied to the boat. I did observe the locals using CQR type anchors which got me to invest in the claw anchor. Oh yes storage of a claw anchor means you should have a bow roller. I hope to not repeat this night re anchoring but still do the drill and stay alert.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Aaahhh! My favorite topic. A couple of thousand nights on the hook over the years will make you an expert quickly. CQR - You nailed it. Means SE-CU-RE, secure. Sharpen it. I'd say a 25 lb. CQR would do the trick. My 35 lb. has held our 40' boat in all sorts of conditions - we're all chain of course. The kellet is a good idea - Kiwi Anchor Rider hobie pastmember, as is attaching additional chain.

We would attach up to 70 feet of 5/8 to our standard 20 feet of chain rode when anchoring our C25 in tough conditions. This allowed us to anchor with shortened scope in tighter anchorages or sleep very well when the bottom sucked and the winds were ablowing...

The claw really is the runt of the litter in my not so humble opinion

. Think about what actually happens when that anchor hits bottom. Ideally the claw would remain shank down for some holding power, but essentially it's sorta like anchoring with a heavy shovel. It will plow a shallow trough in stupid stuff when you are dragging or just bounce around down there, will hold pretty well in soft mud and sand, but tends to stay on the surface of the bottom rather than digging in. Does NOT reset well.

I find that most folks are more afraid of retrieving their anchor than they are of setting it properly to begin with. Ass backwards if you ask me. When you are hauling the hook, you can decide to stay. When the hook gives away on it's own, the decision has been made for you. If it is stuck, rig a tripline and pull it out with a dink or something...

Finally, the bottom conditions you describe sound tough, I've anchored over old forests and various debris and can concur completely. (Pulled up a big trolling motor, numerous towels, and even a shopping cart once - all attached to my CQR...) That been said, I do carry and will occasionally deploy a folding fisherman's anchor - google it and you will find that they are popular in Europe but really hard to find here. But if all else fails - shop here: http://www.blueoceantackle.com/anchors_for_marine_industry.htm

The fisherman's will pretty much lock in to just about every bottom.

sten
DPO Zephyr C25 #3220 '82 FK SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Pete FL

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 07:49:11

The Complete Anchoring Handbook by Alain Poiraud and Achim and Erika Ginsberg-Klemmtis a pretty comprehensive look at anchors, hardware, and how they work; keep in mind that they may have a little new and tech bias and Poiraud invented the spade anchor, but they still seem to give other designs their due. The three rules of thumb for chain/line length that I am familiar with - chain = boat length, 1/2 of boat length, chain weight = anchor weight - are just arbitrary values with no scientific basis and only one of them actually includes the anchor in determining its value. While, I still believe that no anchor would have had a chance in your terrible ground and inability to swing, a plow/spade might have provided a little more hold as it dragged through the soup. Sometimes you just have to get up in the middle of the night and relocate.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 08:09:41

My primary anchor is a CQR with 30' of chain, and my backup is a Danforth. If I was a full-time cruiser, like Sten, I'd want more chain, but the CQR has never failed me, although I set both anchors on one occasion when anchored on a lee shore in especially severe conditions. The CQR buries itself so well in mud that it's often difficult for an old guy to break it free without using the engine, but that's a minor concern. I've learned not to back down on it quite so hard when setting it, unless I'm expecting severe weather.

There's a new anchor design that is generating a lot of talk called the Manson Supreme, currently on sale at Defender for $750. for a 25' boat. The CQR has proven to be so reliable that it would be hard to justify spending that much in hopes of a better anchor.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 08:46:12

The Bruce is the classic (original?) claw anchor--that "Hook" appears to be a clone. I've read that the design was originally done for oil rigs. Bruce does very well in soft bottom tests. Salts like Anchor-Sten like the CQR, but it takes a much heavier CQR (like double) to match up to a modern plow designs (with or without rollbars) in tests I've seen. (Old salts also don't like anchor tests.

) All that said, I haven't found an objective, comparative test that was done on hard bottoms like we have around here--they're mostly done in sand and mud.

Reading this thread and thinking about it, I grow increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of tying off on shore and setting an anchor to hold me out. If the anchor drags and the rock or tree doesn't, my boat is going to swing onto the shore. I'd probably feel better swinging freely on the hook further out (if there's a crowd near the shoreline) and setting an anchor alarm on the GPS. I use the GPS to watch my position--if the track is an arc or circle, I know I'm holding in the tidal or wind swings. (My Delta has held very well so far...) I can even see how much I stretched the rode when setting the anchor.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 10:19:25

A recent anchor test can be found at the following hyperlink. http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/gearreview/boat-anchor-test/

The CQR and some of the other well-respected designs didn't do well in that test, but the people who conducted that test added the following disclaimer:

"So why did some anchors—including some of the best-known models—test poorly while other did so well? A number of explanations are possible, the most likely being the hard bottom. Some anchors excel in our test conditions, some don’t. Another might be the size of our test boat. In a subsequent round of tests, the West Marine crew was able to set all of the anchors using a smaller boat, although it had no data-recording equipment onboard to measure holding power. (West Marine’s test vessel is powered by a 170-hp Yanmar, compared to Shana Rae’s 375-hp diesel, is more than 82,000 pounds lighter, and turns a much smaller prop than the 40-inch wheel on Shana Rae.)"

"In any case, we never intended our test to be the definitive word but rather one more piece of data for you to consider when choosing an anchor, along with things like ease of handling, the type of cruising you do, the kind of bottom you normally anchor on—and yes, how it looks on your boat."

This test was done only on hard sand, but boats anchor in a wide variety of grounds, and the fact that some anchors didn't perform well in this test doesn't change the fact that many thousands of them have performed well in a variety of other conditions.

Therefore, when choosing an anchor, consult these tests, but remember that the ultimate question is, which anchor will serve you well in your venue? On a small inland lake, a Danforth served me well. On the Chesapeake Bay, a CQR does well. Choose the anchor that meets your needs.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 10:53:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 There's a new anchor design that is generating a lot of talk called the Manson Supreme, currently on sale at Defender for $750. for a 25' boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 13:02:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 There's a new anchor design that is generating a lot of talk called the Manson Supreme, currently on sale at Defender for $750. for a 25' boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That must've been a gold-plated stainless steel version... It's $250 at WM and $239 at Defender for the 25# model (for a 25-35' boat). It's among the best in every test I've seen.

A feature I like on the Manson is the slot that runs the length of the shank. Shackle the rode to a ring in the slot, and by reversing the direction of pull, the rode can act as a trip-line when the anchor is caught on a rock or log. Neat idea.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not gold plated, but the price was for the stainless steel version, which I didn't notice when I checked it, but it did sound awfully expensive at the time.

By all reports, the Manson is an excellent anchor, and would be a good choice if you need a $239. anchor, but, depending on your venue, until the price of the Manson becomes more competitive, you might find a $45. Danforth equally satisfactory.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 14:43:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 By all reports, the Manson is an excellent anchor, and would be a good choice if you need a $239 anchor...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Ya, the Delta is a little less, and you can get a matching bottle opener!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 15:42:50

Practical Sailor cautions that all anchor tests should be taken with a large grain of salt, and they do a lot of them, including mud. The Bruce is no longer manufactured, and "all it has in common the the oil rig anchors is the name". In one P/S test it appeared that weight is the most important factor in penetrating a hard bottom, or the luck of catching a rill that allows the anchor to crack the surface. Chuck Hawley strongly believed that single fluke point anchor (spade/ plough, etc) should be the primary, general purpose choice. Read books, study tests, seek advice, and then make the choice that makes you comfortable.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2011 : 22:25:51

This discussion is great as it does remind me to check over all my ground tackle and pay attention to setting the anchor. There is of course more details that go into anchoring like size of boat and equipment. I still raise my anchor hand over hand and the back up is the mast halyard winch used also for raising a heavy load on the anchor. In anchoring close to shore in protected waters there is a factor of the slope of the bottom which does help the scope. The bays I get to visit require to be ready for anything and with another re-anchoring after dark and I going to move up to a CQR.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/07/2011 : 05:36:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Salts like Anchor-Sten like the CQR, but it takes a much heavier CQR (like double) to match up to a modern plow designs (with or without rollbars) in tests I've seen. (Old salts also don't like anchor tests.

) <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am known as Anchor Sten - pronounced with a long E - by quite a few cruisers. Nicknamed after a good beer isn't a bad thing.

Yeah, Delta smelta, Fortress Danny maybe, Manson Supreme would be my only upgrade from the proven CQR.... But the lack of a swivvling shank kinda scares me. Everyone has an opinion, but pulling an anchor from a tug in only one kind of bottom doesn't prove anything. And imPractical Sailor is a freaking joke. I wanted my money back after only one issue. Geez, anyone can keyboard about the best anchor from their cubicle, but when you leave your wife on the hook for 2.5 weeks by herself, tell ME what hook would make YOU comfortable to leave down?!!!!

As Steve Milby said - The CQR has never failed me. Ditto!!!!

AnchorSten

Edited by - redviking on 01/07/2011 05:41:31

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 01/07/2011 : 07:41:26

For the chain - I measured distance from bow to waterline (4' +/-) and then multiplied by 7 (7:1 scope) gives 28 feet. Then I rounded up to teh nearest 10. So I have 30' of chain on our anchors.

Now when I go to anchor, I just take the depth off the sounder and multiply by 7 for a 7:1 scope. I'm lazy, and this accentuates my laziness.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2011 : 08:13:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And imPractical Sailor is a freaking joke, Delta smelta, Fortress Danny maybe, Manson Supreme would be my only upgrade from the proven CQR.... But the lack of a swivvling shank kinda scares me.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have an opinion, don't bore me with facts!

Perhaps you should actually read P/S methodologies, environments, caveats and results. In a wide variety of conditions in numerous tests, both articulating and non-articulating, concave fluke plow/spades (enhancements of the old reliable CQR) are clearly an improvement. Inertia is a difficult thing to overcome. CQR was king for a very long time with many fallen challengers, and it is still an excellent anchor, but the body of knowledge supporting the newer designs is pretty comprehensive

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