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I had the survey done, your thoughts? (long)

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/26/2002 : 14:55:57

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Okay. This past weekend my wife and I traveled deep into Michigan (we're Buckeye fans) to be there for the survey of C25 hull # 5553 SR/SK with trailer.

A couple things were discovered (naturally).

First, the poptop didn't want to seal completely, even with the wing nuts tightened. The forward edge was what seemed to not seal completely. The forward wingnut when tightened down would pop out of the bracket. The broker wondered if this was not unusual for C25s. The surveyor didn't know. Can anyone comment on this?

Second, there was maybe less than a gallon of water in the forward compartment under the v-berth. It was clear, so it was thought to be rain water, but there was no evidence of moisture on the deck or hull, except around one chainplate, which I will comment on later. It was thought that perhaps the water came in from rainwater collecting and leaking in from the anchor locker, so we dumped a bucket of water into the anchor locker, but did not see any water coming back into the compartment. The boat had not been in the water all year, according to the broker. Has anyone experienced the same thing? And if so, can you advise me as to where the leak may be coming from?

Third, the wood cabinet covering the keel trunk appeared to be glued (either accidentally or intentionally) to the keel trunk, so we were not able to examine the keel trunk. The broker brought one of his mechanics over to see if he could get it off, and he was able to squeeze his hand into the port side (the non-glued side) and feel that there was nothing there to view anyway. I thought we could view the pivot bolt there, or a tightening bolt, but he said no, the pivot bolt was accessed from below. I've never owned a C25 so I took his word for it. The reason why I said the cabinet may have been glued accidentally is because there was evidence of water damage on the glued side, so we thought that perhaps the laminate on the cabinet had begun to come apart, and that glue (maybe 5200) was applied to correct it, and had soaked through and stuck to the keel truck.
Does this sound reasonable to anyone? Is this cause for concern? Should I require the cabinet be removed to view the keel trunk?

The spot on the deck that showed water infiltration was around the port side middle and forward shrouds. The surveyor, using a moisture meter, said it was moderate to high moisture, and that delamination had begun. He said it was easy to fix, by removing the chainplates, allowing the affected areas to dry, and then apply some bonding agent, perhaps, and then re-seal the chainplates. Having no experience with this, is his recommendation to fix this correct? His explaination sounded easy enough.

Again I am imposing upon your knowledge and hospitality. Please help this newbie make a good purchase. All comments and advise are welcome. I do have pics if anyone is interested.

Thank you very much.

Ben

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 15:37:43

Ben,

One thing I would give up MICHIGAN football is sailing. So even tho' you would have liked to watch, be at the game, you did the best thing.

At this moment I can't comment about the survey, but really wanted get a good "Go Blue" in. (Seriously I hope OSU beats Miami, most likely, in the Fiesta Bowl. The Big Ten deserves a national champion!)

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 11/26/2002 15:38:33

Edited by - on

n/a
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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 16:35:21

Ben. I have an 82 swingkeel. I have water at times under the V berth. Haven't a clue where it is coming from other than it is from the rain as nothing come in unless it rains. I don't think this is serious. As to the cover over the swing keel...who knows.. I just removed mine to refinish it and it was screwed into some small pieces of wood glued to the keel trunk thing. I think if they were trying to hide anything it would show up on the floor around it but with the cover on you can't be sure. I think I would try to remove the cover if it seems at all posible, but if all the damage is limited to the keel cover I don't think anything very serious has happened as all the stories of the keel falling I have heard result in major damage that would be visible.

If what you list is all that is wrong with this boat I think it is a matter of price. When the price is right for you buy it...If the price is high this is not the only boat in the world. Keep looking. Having said that I will admit I paid to much for my boat because I wanted a C-25 and it was the only one available on my lake and paying to have one trucked in brought the price up to what I paid. Good Luck

Robert B. Arrowood

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 17:11:20

Ben,

The most common source of water under the v berth is the little drain tube in the anchor locker, which is easy to seal. When you poured water in the anchor locker, the water might have drained out of the anchor locker before enough leaked to be apparent. If the tube leaks, it is probably a rather slow leak.

My pop top has never sealed tightly enough to not leak when a hose or bucket of water was dumped on it, even when the boat was new. The wingnut shouldn't pop out of the bracket. I've never heard of it happening, but it doesn't sound like a serious problem.

I don't think I would agree to buy it until the owner, at his expense, opened the keel trunk so I could see inside it. If it was damaged in opening it, or if there is damage or deterioration inside, the owner should repair it or lower his price enough for you to repair it. Why should you have to gamble on whether there is unseen damage or deterioration in the keel trunk, when the owner or his predecessor is the one who glued it shut? Eventually you will probably have to open the keel trunk. Why should you have to take the risk of damaging it at your expense. If you can find out what kind of glue was used, there might be a solvent that will weaken the glue without damaging something.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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John Mason
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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 18:15:42

My pop-top only has dogs (wingnuts) on the sides. One on each side. Did the factory add one to the front of the pop-top in later years? Mine's an '82. Or is it a PO add on to try to seal that spot?

The delamination around the chainplate depends on how big an area is affected. Once moisture gets into the deck core it can spread to quite a large area over time. One method of fixing it is to drill small holes around the chainplate, through the deck fiberglass into the core material (plywood) but not into the bottom layer of glass, starting near the chainplate and moving out until you get dry wood in the drill bit. Then you know how big the area is. Let it dry out (pouring acetone into the holes helps this process). Then fill the holes with resin, topping off with gel coat matching the color of the deck.

The other two items I know nothing about. My anchor locker doesn't leak (knock on fiberglass) and I have a fixed keel (makes you wonder what was wrong with it before).

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 19:49:13

Ben - my gut feeling says "walk away from it". There are lots more C25's out there...
Derek

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Ben
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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 20:47:40

Thanks for your thoughts everyone.

Derek, I'm a bit surprised your gut says to walk away from it. I didn't think anything about it's condition was out of the ordinary for a 15 year old boat. What specifically gives you a bad feeling? The only thing I can think of it being is the keel trunk, and it is easy enough to make it's inspection a condition of the sale. Or am I missing something?

Thanks again.

Ben

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SALTY SAILOR
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 20:51:08

BEN,
I GET WATER LEAKING IN UNDER THE V BERTH WHEN WE GET A HEAVY RAIN AND IT CAN'T DRAIN OUT OF THE ANCHOR LOCKER FAST ENOUGH. THE REPAIR HAS BEEN COVERED IN THIS FORUM NOT TOO LONG AGO AND IS FAIRLY SIMPLE ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT DONE IT YET, WILL WAIT FOR SPRING AND ABOVE FREEZING TEMPS. AS WAS SAID BEFORE IF THIS BOATS NOT FOR YOU THERE ARE PLENTY MORE OUT THERE.

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ronrryan
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561 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 20:54:52

I am new to c25's but old, old, OLD on maintenance. Just did the anchor tube thing, see previous posts on anchor lockers (anchor locker gavotte) I would say unless you have an exceptional buy and are in love with the particular boat and have an appetite for somewhat ambitious restoration jobs, avoid any boat with deck delamination or an area of keel housing you cannot thoroly inspect (not an unreasonable stipulation in boat purchase, by the way). This doesnt mean not to buy the boat, only to buy at a price that is reasonable in view of the work, and with a full uderstanding of the future investment of time you face. Actually, few things are mre rewarding in life than fixing up your boat ("sweat equity") but you must factor that into your offer. Godspees, ron srsk 1981 "Orion" #2343 SW FL

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 21:18:57

Ben,

First, you are not taking advantage of the group that uses the c25/250 forums. People who do like to share their experiences, and enjoy being able to help others. So your questions are important and you need to have them answered. What a better place to go than to a group of friends who want to help. that's what makes this forum so meaningful to us.

Secondly, water under the vee birth. To me clear water sounds like rain water, and as others have suggested it likely comes from the anchor locker drain line. I've never had that problem on osmepneo, but from what others write, it seems something that should be fairly easy to fix.

osmepneo is a converted swing keel, by po, and it is easy to view the keel trunk on it. I remove two floor plates to see the bolts that hold the keel on to the boat. The aft end is under the steps out of the cabin. Someone wiser than me would need to comment on the cabinet that prevented you from seeing the keel trunk. My gut says you should be able to see the top of it from inside the cabin. I would want to see it.

The pop top on osmepneo has not been raised, to po owner had removed the hold up devise. But, I only have two screw downs to hold the top down and to seal it shut. On my 22 (which I bought new) I placed some kind of marine weather stripping around the opening and that sealed it. I don't remember it leaking, but that seemed like a good idea to help assure that it didn't leak. Catalina direct might have a kit for this purpose.

Fixing deck delamination is not terribly complex, and the surveyors advise seems about right right. It is critical to allow the area to dry before adding any sealant so that the sealant adheres to the core. I suspect you want to identify the area where delamination has started and might want to add some epoxy in that area. Then drill 1/4" holes on 1" centers over the entire delamination area and about 3" beyond. According to West Epoxy systems you'll want to drill about a third of the way through the core. Next allow the area to dry using a heat gun or a hair dryer. After its dry fill with an epoxy mixture, forcing the epoxy mixture into the space between the core and delaminated area. Put weight over the area and let the epoxy cure and sand. (These notes are rough condensation of West systems procedure for repairing cored deck delamination.) Process not hard, but can be time consumming.

Hope this helps (even a buckeye)

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 21:53:51

If I may be so bold, what is the asking price for this 1987 SK C25?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 07:35:16

The owner originally was asking 11k, I negotiated him down to 9.7k before the survey. The surveyor estimated the boat, trailer and motor at 10.7k. I'm thinking I'm going to try to further negotiate him down in light of some of the boat's deficiencies. The owner and broker don't know that the surveyor assessed it for more than the negotiated price, and I don't plan on telling them.

Ben

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Bill Holcomb
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 09:25:41

Hey Ben,

As others have said, the water in the v-berth locker is probably coming from the drain tube in the anchor locker. Not too bad to fix, but not all that fun either. The water might be coming from the leaky chainplates too........although, I would have expected some discoloration due to the wood coring in the deck if that was the case.

What has me concerned is the deck delamination and you inability to see into the bilge. The survey indicated moderate to high water saturation.........that ain't good! The plywood core may be deteriorating already. And, if that is the case, you're looking at a real unpleasand repair job. You should also check the upper chainplate bolts in the bulkhead between the main cabin and the head. If water has penetrated into the bulkhead, it will need to be repaired or replaced too.

Not being able to see into the bilge of a swing keel is a big problem in my view. The reason why the wood covering is glued down isn't the issue. The issue is that if there was a failure of the keel cable at some point in time, the keel trunk (currently hidden by the glued down cover) may be damaged and needing repair. You cannot determine if there is damage unless you can look into the bilge.

BTW: the keel hanger assembly and pivot pin are bolted on to the bottom of the boat as you were told. Part of the ongoing maintenance on SK C25s is to regularly inspect this assembly, the pivot pin as well as the keel cable, turning ball, and winch.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 09:48:47

Ben - Bill Holcomb said it best! I really don't think that a 15 yr old C25 should show those problems if it has been properly maintained. Obviously, this one hasn't and I would be concerned over what problem I would find next..."This Side Up" is 21 years old and looks like new.
Derek

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luckystar
Navigator

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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 12:17:24

Or offer a really low price to compensate for the repairs you'll have to do. That's what I did. The boat with an older motor, no trailer with many minor things, yet important maintenance items that had been neglected was being offered at $8000. After my survey with similar sounding items (i.e. tighten this, seal that but no water delam) it gave me the ammo to haggle the price down to $5000. I've been sailing pretty much since day one and working on the boat too! I wish I still had the pics of what mine looked like when I got her (computer crash lost em) and you could compare to the new shots (in the show us your boat thread). These boats, IMHO, have a wonderful ability to be resurrected many times if you're willing to do some repair. The best part is you learn so much about your boat along the way! So I'm with Derek and Bill, if you don't want to do the work and can't get the price down to compensate for the labor, then walk away! Good Luck!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 12:51:11

MY two cents....

First, a little water under the forward berth shouldn't be much to worry about because Steve Milby is probably right about the source of the water. There are only 2 other ways it could get there...the first being a badly caulked rub rail....the second being the hatch up front. either one are minor and probably easily fixable.

Two things concern me...Deck delamination being one. If the surveyor said that the other areas are dry, then rebuilding the chainplate are, instead of a bonding agent is your best bet. When I had my boat surveyed, we had minor moisture around 2 stanchions. We were told that in a 15 to 20+ YO boat you are going to have that problem 7 times out of 10 around stanchions and chainplates. Especially if the boat has been used and not just left to look pretty at the dock. Count on $100 in materials, and a fair amount of time in sweat equity. We redid 70% of the deck of a 32 foot boat this past season so I can talk you through the steps.

Not getting into the keel trunk area would concern me. Before you buy, find a way to inspect that...

Most of your other problems sound minor...You can always glass in your pop top or apply some foam weather stripping, and adjusting the wing nuts are another minor repair.

So if you want to do some deck repair, and the keel checks out okay, make the guy an offer...but, deduct all repair costs and then some, give yourself room to work with. Deduct the repair costs as if a boatyard would do the work. Go to the boat fiberglass place and get a quote, do the same for any other minor repairs. When the guy says, hey you could do that yourself for less, tell him that when you spend 8 to 10 grand, you want it done by certified pros...(then go fix it yourself anyway). Also, inspect the sails.
dw

Also - Where in Ohio are you...you can take a look at mine for comparison if you like....And I just had it appraised and would have no problem pointing out its faults either...

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 11/27/2002 12:59:21

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 12:55:48

I believe all boats, even new ones, require something to be done to them so I wouldn't necessarily disregard a boat because of a few maintenance issues. The important thing is to not overpay for the boat in relation to those maintenace issues.

"Or offer a really low price to compensate for the repairs you'll have to do. That's what I did....to haggle the price down to $5000." - Patrick Burnett

I got a pretty good deal too, when I purchased North Star last year. The 1980 FK/SR Catalina 25 looked like it had been parked for a couple of years without a hint of attention. Other than needing a badly needed bottom job and a major, major cleaning, the boat was solid and complete. The boat has Harken roller furling, balanced rudder, split backstay, 1996 Mercury 8hp LS with only 3 seasons on it(looks like it just came out of the crate), upgraded sails and sailcover, no blisters, new depth meter, newer VHF spreader bracket upgrade, stem fitting upgrade, newer cradle,...and the list goes on and on. After taking off a couple of years of dirt and grime inside and out, refinishing the teak, new epoxy bottom job, ...etc, and after spending a few nickels and dimes, I have a beautiful boat.

The price I paid for North Star...$2,650.

My old boat, which I sold after purchasing North Star, was a 78' Venture 25, that I purchased in 95'. I sold that boat for $300 less than what I paid for it 7 years earlier and I got more($2,700) for it than what I paid for the C25.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 12:56:43

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Third, the wood cabinet covering the keel trunk appeared to be glued (either accidentally or intentionally) to the keel trunk, so we were not able to examine the keel trunk.... The reason why I said the cabinet may have been glued accidentally is because there was evidence of water damage on the glued side, so we thought that perhaps the laminate on the cabinet had begun to come apart, and that glue (maybe 5200) was applied to correct it, and had soaked through and stuck to the keel truck.

Does this sound reasonable to anyone? Is this cause for concern? Should I require the cabinet be removed to view the keel trunk?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
No, yes, and yes. If your "accident" scenario sounds plausible to you, I'd like to talk to you about some stock... <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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