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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Loos gauge

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Bruce Baker
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USA
402 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/26/2002 : 15:39:47

I know this question has been asked and answered before, but I tried a search of the archives that came up empty.

What are the recommended rig tensions for a C-25. I've found them for a C-22. Are they the same?

Also, I seem to remember something about needing two different loos gauges (for the tops vs. the lowers)? Is that still true. I was in West Marine the other day and saw a Loos gauge that said something like "new and improved, now accepts ?? wire".

Any help you have on this would be most appreciated. I hope to finally raise my mast over Thanksgiving weekend.

Bruce Baker
Yee Ha
Alexandria, VA

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2002 : 19:44:17

Bruce - do you race or cruise? There's a BIG difference in the tuning!
I have just one Loos guage and it works on all the shrouds (altho' it is a bit tight on the uppers!)
Derek

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Bruce Baker
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402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 13:57:59

I'm primarily interested in racing. I'm aware that cruisers generally go for a stiffer rig, but why is that? What's wrong with cruising at a high rate of knots:)

Bruce

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 15:11:19

OK Bruce - here goes!
I've just retuned "This Side Up" for light to moderate air. The Loos guage reads (just using the FRONT of it - don't bother converting to the back side numbers), aft lowers - 10" of slack (just registers on the guage), uppers 30, forward lowers 25. The forestay has 10" sag and the backstay a good 6" (when not tensioned). All these are taken with mainsheet, vang and cunningham loose.
The most important parameter of all is to have the mast in column (straight up & down and from side to side) and make doubly sure that the masthead doesn't hook slightly to one side or the other (sight up the mast track to best check this).
With these dialed in you'll be fast to weather and even faster downwind. When the wind kicks up past 15k I put an extra turn on all the shrouds.
Derek

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/27/2002 : 17:27:18

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The most important parameter of all is to have the mast in column (straight up & down and from side to side) and make doubly sure that the masthead doesn't hook slightly to one side or the other (sight up the mast track to best check this).
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Reminds me of the first time I tuned OJ's mast - gave it a "S" bend <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> !

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albert
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262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 18:42:08

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
OK Bruce - here goes!
I've just retuned "This Side Up" for light to moderate air. The Loos guage reads ....
Derek

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Derek,

Which Loos gauge did you use?

How do you measure the slack (eg. aft lowers 10" slack)?

Basically, all stays are loose except the uppers at 30 and forward lowers at 25?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2002 : 21:19:00

Albert, if memory serves me correctly it's a Type A guage (I've had it for at least 12 years!) - it's a small aluminum doohickey with a slot on the bottom into which the shroud fits and a string loop to pull it backwards until the arrow at the top is on the line. Then you read the tension from where the shroud cuts the guage.
My forestay & backstay I judge by "waving it" and estimate the sag. Then when going to weather I eyeball the forestay when the genoa is full and see how much it sags off the centerline.
Forestay sag gives you a wider "groove" in which to sail - if you need to point higher, or if the wind kicks up, crank down on the backstay & adjust the traveller. This, however, narrows the groove and makes pointing more of a challenge! When you turn the weather mark - throw everything off, ease the halyards and boogie!
Good luck!
Derek

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 10:15:20

The aft lowers are slack? I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but according the the North Sails tuning guide for a Catalina 22 the lowers are tensioned to about 24 and the uppers to about 26. What is the difference in the respective rigs that causes the aft lowers on a 25 not to be tensioned? Is everybody doing this? Does the factory have any recommendations on tensioning? Is there a difference between tall or standard rig?

Thanks
Frank Gloss
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 18:02:13

Frank - the tensions on a C22 were dependent upon whether you had a split backstay or not. If not, then you had to induce pre-bend in the mast by tensioning the forward lowers.
I have a tall rig C25 and the above figures make the boat the fastest
it can be. A fixed keel is notoriously slow to weather (if a swinger doesn't beat you to the weather mark he's not trying!) because it tacks slower than a swing and develops more leeway. Ergo, what you lose on the roundabouts (going to weather) you have to more than make-up on the swings (going off the wind). This tensioning does it well! When I pole out a 155% genoa, even the J-22's flying chutes have a problem overtaking me.
Derek

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albert
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 20:43:24

I have a Stnd Rig. Would the tension be different compared to a tall rig?

Also I do not have a split backstay. Nor does my single backstay have a way to adjust other than the turnbuckle.

Recommendations?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

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albert
Captain

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262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 20:45:41

Also the Loos manual recommends all stays to be very tight. Basically there should be NO slack on the lee stays when going to weather?

This contrasts to Derek's recommendation.

Why would cruisers prefer tight rigs vs. racers preferring loose rigs?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2002 : 22:30:04

Albert - I'm sorry but I have no experience with a non-split backstay on a C25 - my only suggestion would be to tension it like a C22, with about 1" of pre-bend in the mast, using the fore lowers.
Why do racers have a loose rig? It's faster...Once you get used to seeing the leeward shrouds looking like pieces of wet spaghetti...
Remember that Loos and Catalina make their recommendations for every day cruising - not for racing.
When first I had a C22 I tuned it according to the factory. Then I raced against the hot-shot guys from Lake Grapevine (more C22 National Champs there than anywhere else!). After the first day, when they were on their 3rd beer as I was crossing the finish line, I checked out their rigs - wow! loose as a goose! I figured that these guys knew something, so since then I have followed suit.
Derek

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2002 : 11:43:07

Albert: A loose rig allows a racer to have full sails for off-wind or light-wind work, and to use the backstay adjuster to harden the forestay and bend the mast for flatter sails going to weather in heavier air. That suggests loose fore and backstays and aft lowers. I would expect most to have reasonably taught upper shrouds to keep the mast upright to weather, and snug forward lowers to help induce bend when they want it. Swept-back spreaders (which we don't have) change things somewhat, since they allow the uppers to contribute to the bend. But I've only crewed--not skippered a racer.

Cruisers, especially off-shore, like the rig tight so things don't move around and cause impact loads that could break something. And some just prefer not to have to fiddle with things all the time... But then, when that Cal is gaining on us while we're out daysailing, we wish there was some string we could pull... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/08/2002 11:48:36

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