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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Cat 22 to sail around? This I gotta see!

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/28/2011 : 12:17:36

http://www.readoz.com/publication/read?i=1032331#page24

You can lead a horse to water, but it's still a horse!

sten

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2011 : 14:19:22

I sure hope he found a fin keel boat for the trip, and carries a spare rudder. As a 30+ year C-22 owner, personally I think he's nuts.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2011 : 22:07:59

Nuts?? Let me count the ways! Farewell.

BTW, I know some folks who've done the Pacific passage to French Polynesia and on to NZ and AU... This is not a trip for a daysailer. For every 2-3 weeks of doldrums (and you'd better have fuel), you can have 1-2 weeks of 30-50 knots with rain, ice, 30' seas,... Of course, somebody probably did it in a cardboard box (chime in here Steve or Sten)... And then he's going to sail along the coast of Somalia--maybe even stop into port for a visit, and hope everyone's nice to him. Whatever.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/28/2011 22:10:42

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2011 : 05:35:31

I wouldn't circumnavigate in a C22, but that's just me (as well as most sane people). But, this is the era of ultra light blue water racers, like the Hobie 33, that are built very lightly and raced from California to Hawaii. It was one of the first, and was predicted to break up on it's first race, but it didn't.

Webb Chiles sailed a large part of the way around the world in a 17' open sailboat. Imagine no protection from the sun, wind and waves that far. Imagine getting swamped again and again in a storm, and bailing it out and continuing on. It's not my idea of fun.

Robert Manly sailed Tinkerbell across the Atlantic. Tinkerbell was a 13' Old Town open wooden daysailer that Manley modified by enclosing it. If you've ever seen an Old Town boat, they're very nicely built old wooden boats, but they're very lightly built. They're clearly designed to drift across a small lake under clear, blue skies dotted with puffy white clouds. After Tinkerbelle, others have crossed the Atlantic in much smaller boats.

But it could be done. You'd want a fin keel, and you'd want a boat without a pop top. The key would be to heave to in severe storms, and prevent the boat from taking structural damage from breaking waves. I'd also want to reinforce all the deck cleats, so they wouldn't rip out under that stress. Also, you couldn't sail continuously. You should sail in the seasons when weather is most favorable, and sit out the storm season. I'll leave it to a young guy to make that trip, because everyone knows they're going to live forever.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2011 : 06:28:19

The guy owns another boat that seems to be much more up to the task. Foolish publicity stunt.

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2011 : 19:10:43

Not sure how together he is. I checked his web-site and he has not made any progress. And that's just a web-site.

Vern Wright

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2011 : 21:25:49

Then again, this might be like NASCAR where they modify a "stock" car to the point where it is no longer resembles anything close to what it is supposed to be. Take a Cat22, modify the keel, rudder, rig, deck, hull -- but use a Cat 22 sail and what might you have??????

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2011 : 06:40:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigelowp
 Then again, this might be like NASCAR where they modify a "stock" car to the point where it is no longer resembles anything close to what it is supposed to be. Take a Cat22, modify the keel, rudder, rig, deck, hull -- but use a Cat 22 sail and what might you have??????<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nothing. He'd be better off in an old school 25 with it's near 50/50 ballast/displacement ratio. Even with a C25, I'd have a lead bulb affixed to the keel and step the mast to the keel.

the cockpit on a C22 is too large and vulnerable, the cabin too small, and the boat is just way too damn light...

sten

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2011 : 09:49:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 [quote]Originally posted by bigelowp
 ...the cockpit on a C22 is too large and vulnerable, the cabin too small, and the boat is just way too damn light.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And to my eye, there's too much beam to go along with not enough ballast, such that if she broaches, she'll turtle instead of coming back up.

The "[url="http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html"]Capsize Ratio[/url]" for the C-25 is 1.9. The C&C 39 is 1.8. The C-22 is 2.3 - 2.4 (about the same as an O'Day Daysailer). Conventional wisdom is you don't go off-shore (where the nearest hiding place is further away than a reasonable weather window) on a boat that's over 2. Most blue-water cruisers are 1.75 down into the 1.6 range. Of course, the C/R can be viewed as an overly simplistic measure--it doesn't take into account the geometry of the ballast--but it's a common figure for making some comparisons. And as Sten alludes, a "blue-water" boat needs much more than a low number to take care of you when things get crazy.

The link above is sorta interesting--you can pick a boat off the list and see it's statistics, including C/R, Motion Comfort, SA/D, hull-speed, etc. Click on a "statistic" to see an explanation. You can also get a "report" comparing two boats. Simplistic? You be the judge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/30/2011 09:52:04

mmac
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2011 : 09:59:35

Didn't Webb Chiles step off that boat in the open ocean or was it another around-the-world voyage? He changed his mind and was later rescued.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2011 : 10:36:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mmac
 Didn't Webb Chiles step off that boat in the open ocean or was it another around-the-world voyage? He changed his mind and was later rescued.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Could be. I don't remember that, but the boat was swamped repeatedly in storms, but didn't sink because of floatation, and he bailed it out. It had to be an alternately cold, hot, wet, sunburned, miserable experience for months at a time, and you have to wonder how he maintained his sanity. He eventually gave up the circumnavigation. I just checked his current activities, and it appears he's undertaking his 5th circumnavigation. He has also been involved with the construction and sailing of a replica of a Viking ship.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/30/2011 10:44:23

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 10:36:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I wouldn't circumnavigate in a C22, but that's just me (as well as most sane people). But, this is the era of ultra light blue water racers, like the Hobie 33, that are built very lightly and raced from California to Hawaii. It was one of the first, and was predicted to break up on it's first race, but it didn't.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know the guy that won the Double-handed division TRANSPAC 2005 on a Hobie 33. he also won the 2009 St Pete NOOD. His name is Scot Self and he's a great guy. In fact, in this video of a race start, Soap Opera is the boat with the green sails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E63E-ri6Mo8

yes I know, our start was horrible.

But we did win all three series for B Fleet on Joint Venture for 2010 and were awarded 3 bottles of nice twelve year scotch Saturday Night. As a surprise, Stephanos won B fleet Sunday Summer Series and I got a small bottle of Tequila.

back on topic, if the boat is reinforced he might have a chance.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 10:54:28

Man, you guys get really nice awards. All we get is a little plaque or piece of glassware.

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 11:41:06

Hey Dave! About that capsize ratio stuff. Checked my 250 out and found a number of surprising things. A Almost all Catalinas 350, 320, 309, 28, 27, 250 wk etc. have capsize ratios over 2. 250 on up were close to the exact same ratio. Even boats like the Macgreggor 26m have lower capsize ratios. I know for sure that the 350 is a true class A boat and I suspect the 320, 309 can handle class a conditions. Clearly, boat geometry must play such a significant role that the ratio itself is (hopefully) close to meaningless- at least for Catalina...

Another interesting thing is that the cat 250, 27, 270, appear to be the same boat in LOA and LWL, beam, etc.. The main difference seems to be in the displacement.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 12:06:20

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah I was surprised. Since I was on helm for the Fall Series the skipper of Joint Venture (C-27) gave me one of the three bottles of scotch.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 14:07:41

The capsize ratio of a C27 is 1.73 according to several sites I just visited. -
For the C250 wing keel, C27, and C270:
LOA: 26'11", 26'10", 28'4"
LWL: 21'3", 21'9", 23'9"
Ballast, fin keel: n/a, 2,700lbs, 1,840 lbs(2000 in brochure)
Ballast, wing keel: 1,050 lbs, 2,600 lbs, 2,060 lbs
Ballast, shoal keel: n/a, 3,150 lbs, n/a
Displacement, fin keel: n/a, 6,850 lbs, 6,240 lbs
Displacement, wing keel: 4,200 lbs, 6,750 lbs, 6,460 lbs
Displacement, shoal keel: n/a, 7,300 lbs, n/a
What really interests me is that the 270 appears to be a bigger boat, i.e. more LOA and more LWL, but is much lighter than the 27. Have I missed something here?

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/31/2011 20:10:23

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 16:32:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ...What really interests me is that the 270 appears to be a bigger boat, i.e. more LOA and more LWL, but is much lighter than the 27. Have I missed something here?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Your LOA figures are off--the C-270 is 27', and were did you get the C-250 figure? See the Boat Specifications page at http://www.catalina27.org. Notice the difference in ballast between the 27 and 270. The LWL is largely a difference in overhangs. Most newer designs reduce them to get the longer waterline.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 19:49:48

Here's where I got the C270 numbers:
http://cruisingresources.com/Catalina_270
Found one other site with the same numbers,
http://www.catalina270.com/

but I'll agree, the C270 brochure on the association website is slightly different. Brochure shows ballast at 2000 lbs, but that is still less than the C27. Total weight is also several hundred lbs less.

The C27 numbers came from a C27 sales brochure hard copy that's been on a shelf in my office for a very long time, got the C30 brochure too.

Here's the C250 brochure:
http://www.catalinayachts.com/yachts.cfm?act=model&id=17&sid=2&link=spec

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/31/2011 20:12:06

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 20:31:18

For the 270, I see LOA = 28'4 along with "Length of Hull" = 27'. I don't see a bowsprit, so I don't know where the extra 16" are. The C-27/270 association doesn't show that LOA, however. But the C-27 clearly is more substantially ballasted--at least according to the association site. The 270 has a foot more beam. Those two differences will lead to the substantially more favorable capsize ratio for the C-27.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 20:54:23

How far forward of the deck does the bow pulpit extend? Does the Rudder extend beyond the transom? A couple inches each, and you have an answer.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2011 : 22:16:29

The 270 rudder is under the hull. Catalina's brochure lists LOA as 27'0".

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2011 : 06:50:31

Isn't LOA on a brochure exclusive of overhangs? I didn't think they included things like pulpits or pushpits and outboards.

The line drawing I saw looked like the rudder extended beyond the hull below water.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/01/2011 : 07:04:31

As someone else said to me..."He better find a shortcut."

Needs a little work on the webpage ( only has a placecard in place right now )

He is from the Keys... His "world" is probably the Caribbean.

Edited by - redeye on 02/01/2011 07:07:44

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