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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 11:28:58

It isn't if you are using a pole in appropriate conditions. Note my conditions here where I was single handing. Steve is right, in higher winds I would grab the sheet in front of the genoa car and hold it in my hand to work the sail and keep it "wung out", letting it collapse, and fill in cycles.

Edited by - pastmember on 03/30/2011 11:42:54

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 13:18:18

My objection to flying it between the shrouds is that you can't ease it sufficiently if the wind goes forward. We constantly play the pole and the boom as the wind shifts back and forth. (Remember the pole and the boom should always be in a straight line).
With the pole between the stays you are pretty much committed to sailing DDW - a definite no no in my book.
The leeward leg is where we make most of our gains.

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 03/30/2011 13:19:51

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 14:06:13

Bingo. Besides all the dangers associated with sailing DDW you're adding dangers associated with gear failure (pole, shrouds, sail, mast, etc). In the pic posted above the water is dead flat and the wind is extremely light. River James will be sailing in swell, pretty much always. In our local waters when the winds are that light they tend to be more shifty as well (in addition to the kinetic changes in apparent wind from the swells). I agree that it is possible to stick the pole between the shrouds, but I still contend it's a bad idea.

Steve mentions having a 1/4 century of experience and even then says sailing pole-in-shrouds requires very specific low wind flat water conditions with a very skilled person at the helm. RJ has been sailing a year or so at most (he's improving very rapidly), will be in shifty winds, and in swells. Besides, RJ just signed on to crew a J120 for some local offshore events. Rumor has it he was aboard a J80 training last week when they wiped out somewhat spectacularly under the assym in a mini-squall. He needs to stay healthy and in one piece for his team. He's got enough to do besides playing with his pole... ;)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 My objection to flying it between the shrouds is that you can't ease it sufficiently if the wind goes forward. We constantly play the pole and the boom as the wind shifts back and forth. (Remember the pole and the boom should always be in a straight line).
With the pole between the stays you are pretty much committed to sailing DDW - a definite no no in my book.
The leeward leg is where we make most of our gains.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 14:12:16

P.S. the wipeout wasn't his fault. Their skipper is an idot...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 Bingo. Besides all the dangers associated with sailing DDW you're adding dangers associated with gear failure (pole, shrouds, sail, mast, etc). In the pic posted above the water is dead flat and the wind is extremely light. River James will be sailing in swell, pretty much always. In our local waters when the winds are that light they tend to be more shifty as well (in addition to the kinetic changes in apparent wind from the swells). I agree that it is possible to stick the pole between the shrouds, but I still contend it's a bad idea.

Steve mentions having a 1/4 century of experience and even then says sailing pole-in-shrouds requires very specific low wind flat water conditions with a very skilled person at the helm. RJ has been sailing a year or so at most (he's improving very rapidly), will be in shifty winds, and in swells. Besides, RJ just signed on to crew a J120 for some local offshore events. Rumor has it he was aboard a J80 training last week when they wiped out somewhat spectacularly under the assym in a mini-squall. He needs to stay healthy and in one piece for his team. He's got enough to do besides playing with his pole... ;)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 My objection to flying it between the shrouds is that you can't ease it sufficiently if the wind goes forward. We constantly play the pole and the boom as the wind shifts back and forth. (Remember the pole and the boom should always be in a straight line).
With the pole between the stays you are pretty much committed to sailing DDW - a definite no no in my book.
The leeward leg is where we make most of our gains.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 14:30:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 My objection to flying it between the shrouds is that you can't ease it sufficiently if the wind goes forward. We constantly play the pole and the boom as the wind shifts back and forth. (Remember the pole and the boom should always be in a straight line).
With the pole between the stays you are pretty much committed to sailing DDW - a definite no no in my book.
The leeward leg is where we make most of our gains.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Derek is right about not being able to ease the pole when the wind goes forward, but, if the pole that you have is too short or too flimsy to set forward of the stays, then your only alternative is to set it between the stays, or not at all. If the wind goes forward, and you can't ease the pole enough, then you either have to alter course or take down the pole. Thus, you can still get by using the too short, too weak pole that you have, by setting it between the stays, but it will have some drawbacks that a properly sized pole won't have. That's why I said that Derek's method is best, if you have a pole of the proper size to do it. RJ doesn't want to spend the boat units for another whisker pole. I'm just telling him how he can get by with the one he has. If you set the pole between the stays in light to moderate wind, and it gets away from you, it will not break a stay or bring down your mast. If you look at the pole in Frank's photo, you can see that the thin pole will break long before either the mast or stay will fail.

Derek and I have a slight, ongoing disagreement about running DDW. The conventional wisdom is that running DDW is the slowest point of sail. But, sailboat racing isn't a sport that rewards the boat that achieves the highest speed. It rewards the boat that reaches the finish line in the shortest amount of time. A boat that is running DDW will travel a significantly shorter distance to a DDW point than a boat that is broad reaching back and forth. I have found that playing puffs and windshifts while running not exactly DDW, but very deeply downwind, is usually the fastest way to the mark. For example, about 3 years ago I was sailing slightly behind another boat (same design) on a slow broad reach toward the next mark. When the wind puffed, I bore off to leeward and sailed wing and wing for awhile. When the wind eased, I headed up toward the mark, but because I bore off downwind, I was able to sail toward the mark on a course that was much closer to the wind than the other boat, so I made much better speed. I rounded the mark about 100 feet ahead of the other boat. By running almost DDW on the puff, we positioned ourselves to achieve much higher speed the rest of the way to the mark, when the wind lulled. Don't close your mind to the idea of ever running DDW. It's ok to go a little slower if it will position you to go faster later.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/30/2011 15:00:28

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 20:08:42

" have found that playing puffs and windshifts while running not exactly DDW, but very deeply downwind, is usually the fastest way to the mark."
Steve - this is my approach as well. When we are on the leeward leg I endeavor to keep the windex arrow pointed at the corner of the transom. Is this what you mean by "deep downwind". I realize that we sail a bit further than DDW but long experience has taught me that it's the fastest way to the leeward mark.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 03/30/2011 : 21:40:46

Playing windshifts and maximizing VMG is racing 101. RJ isn't racing. I guess the missing information here is that RJ has been sailing for about 6 months (I asked him in person today while we were sailing). He will be sailing in shifty winds and in swells nearly 100% of the time. After some discussion we agreed that his best options are to either remove the forward lower shrouds permanently, glass a piece of PVC pipe on his existing pole to extend it's reach, or convert his 150 into a spinnaker.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 My objection to flying it between the shrouds is that you can't ease it sufficiently if the wind goes forward. We constantly play the pole and the boom as the wind shifts back and forth. (Remember the pole and the boom should always be in a straight line).
With the pole between the stays you are pretty much committed to sailing DDW - a definite no no in my book.
The leeward leg is where we make most of our gains.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Derek is right about not being able to ease the pole when the wind goes forward, but, if the pole that you have is too short or too flimsy to set forward of the stays, then your only alternative is to set it between the stays, or not at all. If the wind goes forward, and you can't ease the pole enough, then you either have to alter course or take down the pole. Thus, you can still get by using the too short, too weak pole that you have, by setting it between the stays, but it will have some drawbacks that a properly sized pole won't have. That's why I said that Derek's method is best, if you have a pole of the proper size to do it. RJ doesn't want to spend the boat units for another whisker pole. I'm just telling him how he can get by with the one he has. If you set the pole between the stays in light to moderate wind, and it gets away from you, it will not break a stay or bring down your mast. If you look at the pole in Frank's photo, you can see that the thin pole will break long before either the mast or stay will fail.

Derek and I have a slight, ongoing disagreement about running DDW. The conventional wisdom is that running DDW is the slowest point of sail. But, sailboat racing isn't a sport that rewards the boat that achieves the highest speed. It rewards the boat that reaches the finish line in the shortest amount of time. A boat that is running DDW will travel a significantly shorter distance to a DDW point than a boat that is broad reaching back and forth. I have found that playing puffs and windshifts while running not exactly DDW, but very deeply downwind, is usually the fastest way to the mark. For example, about 3 years ago I was sailing slightly behind another boat (same design) on a slow broad reach toward the next mark. When the wind puffed, I bore off to leeward and sailed wing and wing for awhile. When the wind eased, I headed up toward the mark, but because I bore off downwind, I was able to sail toward the mark on a course that was much closer to the wind than the other boat, so I made much better speed. I rounded the mark about 100 feet ahead of the other boat. By running almost DDW on the puff, we positioned ourselves to achieve much higher speed the rest of the way to the mark, when the wind lulled. Don't close your mind to the idea of ever running DDW. It's ok to go a little slower if it will position you to go faster later.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 04:20:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 " have found that playing puffs and windshifts while running not exactly DDW, but very deeply downwind, is usually the fastest way to the mark."
Steve - this is my approach as well. When we are on the leeward leg I endeavor to keep the windex arrow pointed at the corner of the transom. Is this what you mean by "deep downwind". I realize that we sail a bit further than DDW but long experience has taught me that it's the fastest way to the leeward mark.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> That's about the way I do it, Derek, but I don't have a formula that I follow precisely every time. The object is always to beat another boat, so I make adjustments to take into account what the other boat is doing. The object is to find a good compromise between achieving maximum boatspeed, and making as much progress downwind as fast as possible, while staying ahead of the other boat, and getting in a favorable position for the next course or maneuver.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 06:32:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 Playing windshifts and maximizing VMG is racing 101. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> And yet we see many very experienced and otherwise skilled racers who either don't do it, or don't do it well, especially on the downwind leg. We have a mix of experienced and inexperienced racers, cruisers and day sailors on the forum, and we talk about things that might stir the thinking of members at all different levels.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> RJ isn't racing. I guess the missing information here is that RJ has been sailing for about 6 months (I asked him in person today while we were sailing). <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> None of that is relevant here. Everyone starts off inexperienced. Moreover, a whisker pole is an inanimate object. It doesn't know whether it is being used for racing or for casual cruising. In any given wind conditions, the whisker pole behaves exactly the same.

RJ bought a whisker pole and tried it, and found that it didn't work when set forward of the stays, but he analyzed what he saw, and reasoned for himself that it will probably work if he sets it between the stays. He was afraid to try it, but he came to the forum to draw upon our experience. When I was as green as him, I also thought it would work, just like him, and I screwed up my courage and tried it, and it worked for me for the 23 years that I owned my C25. I won 2 national championships with that spindly little whisker pole, beating spinnaker boats with my white sails, and won countless local races and regattas.

Using an undersized whisker pole isn't ideal. It has drawbacks, but, if you limit it's use to light and moderate winds, it will work satisfactorily, and it won't break your mast or your stays, unless, of course, the stay is deteriorated from age. The worst case scenario that I have ever seen from it is that the pole might break.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> After some discussion we agreed that his best options are to either remove the forward lower shrouds permanently...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Don't remove your forward lowers, RJ. They are not there as decoration. They serve a purpose. They hold the middle of the mast in column and prevent it from bowing either from side-to-side or aft. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ...or, glass a piece of PVC pipe on his existing pole to extend it's reach...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I wouldn't recommend this. As the length of a whisker pole increases, it's diameter must also be increased, because, when under load, if it is too slender, it will bow out of column, and snap. Adding a piece of PVC to lengthen it won't increase it's diameter. My recommendation is to either use the pole you have in the manner and within the limitations I have suggested, or bite the bullet and buy a longer and stronger pole.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...or convert his 150 into a spinnaker. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Spinnakers are beautiful and fun, but they have their drawbacks. It's expensive to buy and rig one, and, if it's symmetrical, it requires knowledgeable crew to fly it.

You don't need to tell us what you decide, RJ. Just think over the various suggestions, and do whatever makes sense to you.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/31/2011 07:05:32

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 07:12:15

I agree with Steve. If you want to use a wisker pole with a head sail greater than 110, you will have to use it between the shrouds and there is a learning curve to doing so.

I also agree with Ryan. Unless you are racing, with a practiced crew, using a pole between the shrouds is probably not wise in winds at or above 15 knots. This is what makes furlers so nice. You can reduce your jib down to a 110 and use your pole in front of the stays. The C25 is such a great down wind boat that you probably won't notice a difference in speed anyway, except in very light air, in which case you'll want to be using an asymtric spinnaker.

One of my top five most memorable days on the water was a 10 mile downwind single-handed run using my pole on a 135 in about 8-10 knots of wind, with the pole between the shrouds. I used my autopilot the whole run and marveled at nature from the bow.

Edited by - on

RiverJames
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 09:53:16

Hmm.... much to ponder here. You may all not end up knowing what I've decided to do for awhile. You may get a clue when you see me either shopping for a new mast or new forestay rigging. Hopefully you won't hear about it in the news. In the meantime, I guess I'll just avoid sailing downwind altogether ;)

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 11:22:02

This forum nearly always has a broad spectrum of sailors commenting, everything should be read through the prism of your skill and local. I do not sail on big water so my swells only occur at 30 knots true, and I ain't stupid enough to be sailing wing on wing in that. It is amazing how some sailors here deny themselves so much of the pleasure I get from sailing by being too careful to actually use their boats well. So beware of those who advise you to be too careful, they are probably people who never take their car to redline either. I redline my car regularly, but I am probably not careful enough! lol Find your internal sailing muse had sail.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2011 : 13:21:00

Oh, wait - you guys are talking about whisker poles on 110% working jibs? Then never a problem. I fly my 155% up to about 25 knots before going down a size - especially on downwind legs. Once the wind pipes up enough to justify the smaller sail, the pole is no longer needed. If I was to use a pole on a smaller sail, then I would have to place it forward of the lowers, but why bother with a pole at all in winds that strong?

(I know this contravenes what I did on the blogpost above, but that day the squall caught me daydreaming.)

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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USA
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Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 10:34:13

Sorry, I was kidding about removing shrouds, using PVC, or converting jib to spinnaker. I figured they were so ridiculous you'd get a chuckle and we'd be friends... Anyway, his latest idea, and one that I agree with, is to run the pole between the shrouds (per your suggestions) but first to strengthen it by filling it completely with hardened epoxy. It's a bit cost prohibitive but should do the trick...

...april fools!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 Playing windshifts and maximizing VMG is racing 101. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> And yet we see many very experienced and otherwise skilled racers who either don't do it, or don't do it well, especially on the downwind leg. We have a mix of experienced and inexperienced racers, cruisers and day sailors on the forum, and we talk about things that might stir the thinking of members at all different levels.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> RJ isn't racing. I guess the missing information here is that RJ has been sailing for about 6 months (I asked him in person today while we were sailing). <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> None of that is relevant here. Everyone starts off inexperienced. Moreover, a whisker pole is an inanimate object. It doesn't know whether it is being used for racing or for casual cruising. In any given wind conditions, the whisker pole behaves exactly the same.

RJ bought a whisker pole and tried it, and found that it didn't work when set forward of the stays, but he analyzed what he saw, and reasoned for himself that it will probably work if he sets it between the stays. He was afraid to try it, but he came to the forum to draw upon our experience. When I was as green as him, I also thought it would work, just like him, and I screwed up my courage and tried it, and it worked for me for the 23 years that I owned my C25. I won 2 national championships with that spindly little whisker pole, beating spinnaker boats with my white sails, and won countless local races and regattas.

Using an undersized whisker pole isn't ideal. It has drawbacks, but, if you limit it's use to light and moderate winds, it will work satisfactorily, and it won't break your mast or your stays, unless, of course, the stay is deteriorated from age. The worst case scenario that I have ever seen from it is that the pole might break.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> After some discussion we agreed that his best options are to either remove the forward lower shrouds permanently...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Don't remove your forward lowers, RJ. They are not there as decoration. They serve a purpose. They hold the middle of the mast in column and prevent it from bowing either from side-to-side or aft. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ...or, glass a piece of PVC pipe on his existing pole to extend it's reach...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I wouldn't recommend this. As the length of a whisker pole increases, it's diameter must also be increased, because, when under load, if it is too slender, it will bow out of column, and snap. Adding a piece of PVC to lengthen it won't increase it's diameter. My recommendation is to either use the pole you have in the manner and within the limitations I have suggested, or bite the bullet and buy a longer and stronger pole.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...or convert his 150 into a spinnaker. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Spinnakers are beautiful and fun, but they have their drawbacks. It's expensive to buy and rig one, and, if it's symmetrical, it requires knowledgeable crew to fly it.

You don't need to tell us what you decide, RJ. Just think over the various suggestions, and do whatever makes sense to you.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2011 : 12:01:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 Sorry, I was kidding about removing shrouds, using PVC, or converting jib to spinnaker. I figured they were so ridiculous you'd get a chuckle and we'd be friends... Anyway, his latest idea, and one that I agree with, is to run the pole between the shrouds (per your suggestions) but first to strengthen it by filling it completely with hardened epoxy. It's a bit cost prohibitive but should do the trick...

...april fools! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's difficult to distinguish between the opinions and ideas you are serious about, and the ones which are a joke.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 07:13:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Oh, wait - you guys are talking about whisker poles on 110% working jibs? Then never a problem. I fly my 155% up to about 25 knots before going down a size - especially on downwind legs. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey Prospector, Am I really reading your post correctly that you use your 155 till the wind hits 25 KNOTS (28.75mph).... And it sounded like you can carry it upwind also? Thats pretty impressive for the upwind legs if I am interpreting your note correctly!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 10:37:24

What's the difference? :)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 Sorry, I was kidding about removing shrouds, using PVC, or converting jib to spinnaker. I figured they were so ridiculous you'd get a chuckle and we'd be friends... Anyway, his latest idea, and one that I agree with, is to run the pole between the shrouds (per your suggestions) but first to strengthen it by filling it completely with hardened epoxy. It's a bit cost prohibitive but should do the trick...

...april fools! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's difficult to distinguish between the opinions and ideas you are serious about, and the ones which are a joke.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 18:34:42

You just need to be this good... Two time national champion.

Edited by - pastmember on 04/02/2011 18:35:39

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2011 : 19:43:18

What Frank said ;) - Only I ain't no champion.

Edited by - Prospector on 04/02/2011 19:59:58

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/03/2011 : 07:28:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 What Frank said ;) - Only I ain't no champion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't know frank, if that was a picture of Iris close hauled in 25 knots, then you sure have the makings of a champion!!!!!

GREAT Picture Frank!

Chuck

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:36:01

Since downsizing my furling headsail from a 150 to a 135, in light to moderate wind, I find myself using my asymetrical spinnaker more instead of poling out the smaller jib.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 04/03/2011 : 13:20:06

Frank - I think that's "Kansas Twister" in the pic. I spent 2 days looking at that transom....I think it was blowing about 25k and he has a SR which handled the wind better than the TR's.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 04/03/2011 : 14:23:20

As I said, we never put the pole between the shrouds; took 3 bullets this weekend on my friend's C-22 (I was skipper!) See the write-up in the general forum.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/04/2011 : 18:39:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 Frank - I think that's "Kansas Twister" in the pic. I spent 2 days looking at that transom....I think it was blowing about 25k and he has a SR which handled the wind better than the TR's.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
He sure has nice looking sails for sure!

Interesting to see how far out you have to have your crew weight to have it help with your righting moment when you are heeled over that far.

I try to keep Confetti on her feet a LOT more than the boat in the picture. That much heel causes far too much leeway for me for upwind legs. I will say though, his helm is pretty well centered for heeling so much!

Chuck

Edited by - on

DaveR
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USA
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Response Posted - 04/05/2011 : 05:55:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">GREAT Picture Frank!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It really is isn't it Chuck? Frank's got some awesome pics. Wanna see more? [url="http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#100063&sel=0"]Frank' Pics[/url]

See ya this week-end.

Edited by - DaveR on 04/05/2011 05:59:13

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