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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

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T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/06/2011 : 19:24:51

I have just purchased a 1980 C-25. this is my first time with a cabin boat. I sail dingys. I have allot of questions and I want to thank you in advance for your advice.
1. how do these boats stand up over time. is the keel something I should be concern about. Its a fixed wing keel. should i be concerned about the keel bolts. I have no history on the boat. I bought it off a lake in GA.

thank-

Tate Beckham

Tate Beckham

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2011 : 19:35:53

Welcome, and you've come to the right place. You've answered the question about long term durability by buying a 30 year old boat. Most of use were still floating the last time I checked. There are keel issues that need to be checked, but the wing/fin keelers will address that. Its a solid, comfortable boat with decent performance and an interior that utilizes the limited space well. More details about your boat's condition would be good. I'm not sure, but somebody here will know if wings were original in 1980.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 04/06/2011 19:44:11

T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2011 : 19:47:08

I think the overall condition is great. I have vacuumed everyting out and I can see the keel bolts.
So the C-25 have a good track record of being a sound boat with a sounrd keel? I will sail her on a medium size lake and may be want to take he to the keys.
T8

Edited by - on

T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2011 : 20:04:28

is there anything I should look for, for weakness in the keel bolts?

thx

Tate Beckham

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2011 : 20:55:03

Woo Hoo! I'm not the newb anymore!

Congrats Tate...I just got mine a couple weeks ago. Just having fun with ya.

Why are you so concerned with the keel bolts? Do you have reason to suspect yours? Did you get a marine survey prior to purchase?

The wings didn't come around until the late cycle boats, around '88 or so. You most likely have the fixed, or fin keel like I do, unless a previous owner (PO) did a modification and replaced the fixed with a wing. Sort of unusual, as it's usually the swingers that get replaced with a winger. One thing to consider is that the fin keel attachment bolts were greatly over engineered...meaning, the tensile strength of any one alone is enough to hold the keel, excepting any sheer force....so 6 of them (If I counted correctly) even if somewhat weakened will still hold the keel, no problem.

Now, I'm not a professional marine surveyor and only a professional marine surveyor can inspect your keel bolts and give you a VALID opinion on the state of YOUR keel bolts.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2011 : 21:00:23

I checked the link to "Shopping for a C-25" under tech tips - you might look at that and "Self Appraising a C-25" under the same heading. As I suspected, the wing was not available in 1980, but some swingers were retrofitted with a factory kit to change to a wing. That isn't a problem as long as it was done according to standards. I am comfortable with my swinger, and I cannot address keel issues. I suspect that those with more appropriate knowledge will chime in by tomorrow.

You should find your hull number scratched into the transom on the starboard side and add that. Somebody might be familiar with your boat's history.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 04/06/2011 21:03:45

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2011 : 21:03:34

The wing keel was not offered by Catalina until about 1987, and I think it completely replaced the swing keel in 1988. So yours must be a retrofit by a previous owner, using a keel and kit from Catalina. It isn't exactly a do-it-yourself process, so you might be able to find out who did it.

That said, I haven't heard of any wing or fin keel falling off a C-25, and only the older, pre-1984 cast iron fins have shown a need for new bolts, because their originals were mild steel. The swing keels were another issue--particularly having to do with the lifting cables. That's why some owners retrofitted the wings.

You should be fine. Welcome to the community!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 05:40:09

Welcome, Tate.

I assume the keel is lead so, rust shouldn't really be an issue. You might contact Catalina and ask about proper torque on the keel bolts and check that but, I'm not sure I'd bother unless there is some kind of indication of a problem.

Scott suggested a professional survey. That'll cost around $400. Your insurance company might require it. The good thing about a survey, is that it will provide you with a list of items that might need attention and help you prioritize that list. Usually they're done before purchase to protect the buyer but, depending on the price of a 30 year old boat,they aren't always done.

I'd recommend a book called [url="http://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-Sailboat-International-Marine-Library/dp/0071445455"]Inspecting the Aging Sailboat[/url] by Don Casey. I bought it at a local Border's several years ago.

This forum will be a great resource for you. Take some time and join the Association. Best $22 you'll spend. That helps keep the forum and other activities afloat (pardon the pun).

You'll notice on the upper left side of this page that there are sections called [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech.asp"]Technical Tips[/url] and [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/manbro.asp"]Manuals & Brochures[/url]. you'll find a lot of usefull information there.

Don't be shy about asking questions. There's always somebody here that has "been there, done that."

Finally, you'll notice that most of us have our boat type, rig, keel and year information in our signature block. That helps when answering questions. It's also helpful to know where you are and where you sail since someone might know about resources in your area.

Edited by - on

T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 06:02:08

Thanks everyone- My C-25 has a fixed fin keel. Not a wing keel. Its a 1980 model. I am pretty sure the keel is original. I had no marine survey before I bought the boat. I dont know much about these boats so I am educating myself through you guys. I was only asking about the keel because I wanted to hear some feedback about the saftey factor of these boats. Do they have any history of keel bolt failure I should be concerned about in a boat 30 years in age. I think my keel is steel though, not lead. Is that possible? I think my serial number is 1690. I will check again today when I see her. I will post a picture. Maybe someone knows the boat.

thanks-

Tate Beckham
1980 C-25
Blue Moon
Birmingham, AL

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 06:15:02

I think the fixed fin keel of that vintage was cast iron. Lift the bilge cover and take a look at the keel bolts. They'll probably have rust. I wouldn't disturb them other than to clean them up a bit if they need it so that you can determine any damage. Some have "sistered" new bolts in the keel without removing the old ones. Big job but some have done it themselves. I couldn't but then I don't have that kind of skills.

Have you seen the boat out of the water? Specifically, look at the junction of the keel and the hull. If the keel has been hard aground or, you have structural issues with the keel attachment point, you may have the characteristic "Catalina smile", a crack along the hull/keel joint. Not necessarily a huge problem but one that needs to be addressed.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 06:36:21

Welcome!

Just pull up the cover and look for yourself. Take pics to show us if you'd like. You most probably have a conversion to wing keel and I'm not sure if that conversion kit came with steel or stainless bolts.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 07:23:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 ...You most probably have a conversion to wing keel...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">(He pointed out that he misspoke, and has a fin.)

The 1980 fin is indeed cast iron--you'll probably see rust on the outside--not a big deal (and almost impossible to completely prevent). The nuts and bolts, visible in the bilge, will probably be rusty--some goop like roofing cement isn't a bad idea over them. If you have the "Catalina smile" (a horizontal crack front of the keel, about 10" on the down from the hull), it can be filled, and it might indicate that a few new bolts should be added. (You probably won't be able to tighten the old ones.) You can use the Search function above to find threads on "keel bolts" in the C-25 Forum (plus lots of other stuff).

Related to that subject, I'll suggest another investment: The Catalina 25 Owner's Handbook from [url="http://catalinadirect.com/"]Catalina Direct[/url]--a third-party supplier of replacement parts and upgrades, particularly for C-22s and C-25s. The $10 looseleaf book is essentially their catalog, but has lots of good ideas and information. They are great to work with--will record the information on your boat so they can give you the best advice on choices (and ship the right stuff). They send updates to the book each year or so (including, of course, new prices...) Their site is pretty good, too, but the book has more info.

Welcome, T8!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/07/2011 07:28:03

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 07:57:34

When they hauled mine out for a bottom inspection (no smile or blisters!) I had the guy check my keel bolts as well because they are pretty rusty. He told me about the over engineering and that they're stronger than you think, and as long as the nut and shoulder washer are solid and tight, and there's no leaks you're good to go. I didn't have "the smile" either so that may have been a factor in his judgement of my keel bolts.

The guy who owns the boat yard said that unless there is a problem, like broken bolts, smile, keel misaligned due to bad grounding, etc....he won't touch the keel bolts at all. He said "leave 'em alone"...because once you start messing with them, like even just trying to tighten them up, you open a whole can of worms.

You can buy a "Sister Kit"....it comes with some new bolts, nuts, washers, and a special drill bit for drilling into iron. All you're doing is drilling into the iron keel and adding additional bolts. No need for this really unless you're trying to fix a problem. The boat yard guy quoted me $125 per bolt to replace mine with new ones.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 08:03:11

I second the suggestion to get Don Casey's book...and I'll go one further....go ahead and get his "Complete Sailboat Maintenance Manual"....it's basically a compilation of his books into one. I think every sailboat should come with this book! I've learned so much from mine....just as I'm learning a ton from the Annapolis Book of Seamanship and the 5 DVD's....Don Casey's book is teaching me alot about maintaining, inspecting and fixing the boat.

Edited by - on

T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 09:13:06

I have some pictures I can post. How do you add a picture to this post? I have my boat here at my shop on a trailer. I dont see any "smile", cracks or serperation around the keel/hull line. It all looks really good. The keel bolts, (I count (6) of them), are rusted. This boat has been sitting for a while and was full of rain water.
thanks,

Tate Beckham

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 09:33:12

[url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2623"]How to post photos to the forum[/url]

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 09:49:56

Welcome to the party, Tate. Sounds like you have a good boat there. What lake will you be sailing on? Is it in the water now? Do you have a trailer? If not, and you need to move it, I've got a C-25 fin keel trailer that is available to rent, and we're close enough that I could bring it down to you, but not this weekend. I'll be at Lake Martin a little bit south of you there in B'ham.

Edited by - on

T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 10:17:25

David- I am a member of the Birmingham Sailing Club on Lake Logan Martin. Thats around the Pell City area on I-20 east. Right now the boat is on a trailer at my shop[ in Birmigham. I hope to trailer to Lake Martin sometime. I grew up on that lake.

Thanks-

Tate Beckham

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2011 : 14:21:35

Awesome....already have a sailing buddy in another C25 on Lake Martin....aint this place grand?

Edited by - Joe Diver on 04/07/2011 14:21:54

mmac
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 00:17:47

Welcome to the best Catalina 25 site in the world. Rusty keel bolts on freshwater trailer boat probably aren't too big a problem. My boat has been continuously in saltwater since 1979 and I'm not too worried about my keel. If you do decide to do something, sistering new bolts as mentioned is the best way to go.
The big problem you have with an 1980 boat is leaking around the ports. I assume you still have aluminum frames around your windows, which is probably why you had a lot of water inside your boat. Do a search on this forum on that topic and you'll get lots of helpful suggestions on sealing them.
Your other problem might be the electrical system depending on how well the PO(Previous Owner)maintained it. Again using the search feature on this forum will be helpful. Don't hesitate to ask questions.
Lastly, I sail my boat primarily out in the ocean. There has never been a time where I was worried about how safe the boat was, just how competent I was. Learn, learn, and enjoy your boat.

Edited by - on

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 08:51:54

You're hearing from the voices of experience here. Lots of good ideas and advice. Welcome.

My two cents' worth: If I were thinking of going coastal or offshore I would get a surveyor to look things over - keel and bolts, rigging, chainplates, etc. You could probably get a partial survey (well, maybe - it's possible that professional ethics would dictate an all-or-nothing survey) of just the things you're concerned about. I would also probably just go ahead and upgrade the standing rigging to brand new. About $540 but worth it for the peace of mind I'd have. It IS an older boat, after all.

These are great little boats. I've had my '83 out in a major lake blow, 25-35 with gusts up to 45, with a storm jib and reefed main. I never felt out of control or that anything was straining on the rigging. Very solid.

Carlos

Edited by - on

T8BECKHAM
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2011 : 22:32:05

Thanks guys ! Great info!-
T8

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 08:04:47

That sounds like a different Lake Martin. My sister-in-law's place is off HWY 280, way upstream on Manoy Creek, that's fairly close to Dadeville, actually in between Alexander City and Dadeville. We are here at the lake now, enjoying the scenery. They have a pontoon boat, and we will be going out on it later today. I'm looking forward to when Dixie Sailing Club moves, if they ever do it, to a site almost directly across the lake from Manoy Creek. I heard that's in the works, but on hold at the moment.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/09/2011 08:10:52

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