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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Keel Winch Failure

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TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/09/2011 : 14:26:19

My keel winch gave out today, luckily we didn't sink... I don't think we have any structural damage, but will have a good look tomorrow or Monday. I was able to raise the keel and get the boat on the trailer after a couple of hours. (Dave R was with me, so I'm sure he'll post a few pictures later) We'd just started the first race of the day and was pulling the keel up, real light winds, trying to gain .1 knots (over a 10% gain) when the winch went and the drum spun out. Replace everything but the winch last June.... oh well, someone has to keep Catalina Direct in business this week.

Good news is I have another boat to sail the races tomorrow

, bad news is it's the watkins 25, not known for their speed.

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

Edited by - TCurran on 04/09/2011 14:27:15

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 14:52:43

If your winch has a wooden wedge between the stair bottom and the winch you will probably need it with the new winch. On my '82 it aligns the winch so the handle can make 360 degree turns without hitting the stairs.
Sorry about the scare. At least if you have any close crossings tomorrow you know the other boat will give! lol

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 15:03:04

Thanks Frank, yes there was a wooden wedge, I figured it was there for a reason. As far as the close crossings, I just hope to be close enough to another boat to give them a chance to give way...

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 17:30:11

FYI - I just replaced our winch, and it was not an exact fit...while the 3 primary bolts aligned, the housing was larger in some respects...had to whittle out along the stringer to get it to sit properly and re-drill a bolt connecting the stringer to a cleat. None of it a big deal, but - as often the case - the job took about 2x longer that expected...

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 19:17:02

Class rules: the keel must remain fully down, except for an emergency, like running aground. If the keel slammed down, even only a foot or two, and hit the rear of the keel trunk, get the keel trunk checked for leaks.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2011 : 20:22:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We'd just started the first race of the day and was pulling the keel up, real light winds, trying to gain .1 knots (over a 10% gain)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Class rules: the keel must remain fully down, except for an emergency,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, you were cheating?

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 04:12:54

No...not cheating within our very loose club racing (we have our own in-house handicapping system), plus 5' will have me stuck in parts of the river. So...not serious racing or racers (except for Chuck in Confetti).

I also need to thank Dave R for the help yesterday, without his help (and my buddy Bill's) I would not have been able to lift the keel and pull Island Time out of the water. To reward him, he gets to see the fleet from the rear today on the Watkins

Edited by - TCurran on 04/10/2011 06:04:28

Joe Diver
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1218 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 08:48:24

Yeah, I know...I was just teasing you....

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 17:03:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Class rules: the keel must remain fully down, except for an emergency, like running aground. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rules?!! We don't need no stinking rules

Yeah, a bushing on the main shaft broke, took the pressure off the brake disks and allowed the keel to drop. Luckily it wasn't a free fall and it may have hit bottom before it impacted the trunk. We couldn't find any damage but Tom will peek up inside the keel housing and make sure. He and Bill found a big trailer winch in their shop, we bolted that to the top step, brought the cable up through one of the broken winch's mount holes so we were able to raise the keel and get the boat out of the water.
Here's a pic

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 05:47:35

Wow This post really grabbed my attention .
I would be keen on some more detail on what failed so I can check my winch ,..
Are there any photos of the failed parts .

If the keel slammed down, even only a foot or two, and hit the rear of the keel trunk, get the keel trunk checked for leaks.
Surely the damage would be much more substantial if it drops from full up.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 10:38:46

Quick thinking on the substitute winch idea.
It could very well be catastrophic if the keel drops from full up. In my case, we rounded a rock marker buoy to close that we use for Wednesday evening club racing. My keel caught the buoy cable, rose up some, I don't know how much, and dropped back down. The top of the keel apparently struck the back of the keel trunk with enough force to put a hairline crack in the trunk, enough to leak about one bucket full per day into the bilge. I thought we might have to drop the keel, but after hauling the boat, a fiberglass guy was able to repair the keel trunk from inside.
Still, the bill came to just over $800.
Now, I keep a slight amount of tension on the cable at all times. Fortunately, I don't have to raise it to dock the boat.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/11/2011 10:41:01

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 12:36:58

Boomeroo, the failed part was one small main shaft bushing. Maybe we could call it the housing pass through bushing. Bronze I think. Tried to find a schematic of the winch with no luck. It also serves as a spacer for the fishing reel-like drag system the winch uses for the downward motion of the keel.

Here's CD's explanation of how the winch works;
Brent Baker sailing Alizé out of Lawrenceville, NJ explains it well: The handle is mounted on a threaded input shaft. It’s attached to a brake pad which rubs against a brake disc. When you crank down, the pad and disc ease away from each other via the threads. But the weight on the keel cable then causes the drum to turn (allowing the keel down a little). That drum spin counteracts to return the brake disk closer to the brake pad, thus stopping the drum from turning more. So it goes on a micro level. It alternately loosens/tightens/loosens/tightens the disk against the brake pad as you crank the handle down. The effect is so subtle it feels like one continuous flow to you as you crank down under complete control.

The inverse happens when you crank up. As the handle rotates the input shaft, the brake disc is squeezed closer to the pad, making a very tight friction fit. Then the drum turns in sync with the handle and brings the keel up. A ‘clutch’ mechanism if you will. When I first saw mine, I said to myself ‘how’d they do that without a rachet trip-release?’ Very ingenious.”

Edited by - DaveR on 04/11/2011 12:40:56

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 13:41:36

Dave R, thanks for the research and explanation, I was going to ask that you answer Bomeroo... The keel "only" fell half way, I think that, and the what little friction the winch provided, saved me from major damage. A co-worker and I inspected most of the area around the keel today and found no damage. I still need to get a better look in the "bilge", but so far I'm pretty optimistic.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 14:36:51

If the boat is in the water and your bilge is dry, you should be okay.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 15:09:38

, bad news is it's the watkins 25, not known for their speed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But by national PHRF averages, you'd get 18 more seconds (8%). Make sure your "in-house system" gives you something.

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2011 : 10:23:54

Lets hope the keel just kissed the hull lightly !! Does any one know is there any maintenance /adjustment on the winch in particular the braking action. I sometimes feel the keel falls a little faster than it should while lowering it ?? maybe the keel falls a couple of inches and then stops..
When looking at the cable I dont see any overwraps on the drum..
2nd question-- Has anybody installed a sleeve in the swing keel pivot hole without removing the keel and having a drill press enlarge the hole , I have a cast iron keel.. I have the keel lowered using the all thread method but have not looked at how much wear is in the pivot hole..

Frank Law
" About Time "
1983 swk , sr .

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2011 : 13:05:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Lets hope the keel just kissed the hull lightly !! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All I can say Frank, is that the sound I heard when the keel impacted in no way matched what members here talked about when this happened to them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I sometimes feel the keel falls a little faster than it should while lowering it ?? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe your disks are badly worn or glazed. I wonder (but bet you can't) if you can order just those?? At any rate it's not real tough to inspect the thing.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2011 : 14:47:37

New winch from CD is (+,-) $193.00 with shipping, hopefully it'll be here before next weekend (23-24 Apr).

Because I already have a small leak (that I've put off fixing), I had water in the bilge when it went, so it's wasn't just as simple as lifting the boards and looking for water. It should go without saying, that the old speedo thru-hull will be re-sealed (or the hole glassed over) while the boat is out of the water.

Frank, DaveR pretty much said what I would have said. Can't help on question #2.

Edited by - on

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2011 : 18:08:50

Keel pin centerboard hole.....Yesterday I was able to remove the keel pin and what to my wondering eye should appear but a KEEL PIN HOLE that should be a little over an inch was actually close to 1 7/16 ".. I had ordered a new bushing sleeve from C.D. but that is only 1 1/4" od. so instead of enlarging the hole I have to build up the Pin or close up the hole. I talked to an old timer who said a machinist friend could build up the sleeve to 1 7/16" using stainless steel , cost would be $40.00.. I told him to proceed... STAY TUNED

Frank Law
"About Time"
1983 swk sr

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 03:45:46

Frank, that seems just a "little" wallowed out. I'm interested on how the fix works out for you.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2011 : 09:47:15

If you have the traditional interior, remove the keel trunk cover, the wood box at the compression post, and check the aft vertical edge of the keel trunk by applying fresh paper towels to it. If they stay dry, then you should be okay. If you have the dinette interior, I don't know how you would get to the keel trunk to inspect it without cutting into the dinette seat.

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TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 03:48:49

DaveP, we're on the same page with the paper towels, thanks for the advice. The new winch is scheduled to arrive Wed or Thur, should have it replaced and in the water to check by the weekend. Still suffering the effects of shoulder surgery, so my plans depend on a helper (who should be around).

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 06:34:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TCurran
 Still suffering the effects of shoulder surgery, so my plans depend on a helper (who should be around).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tom, Gimme a yell when you need help! If I am not already at the Marina (D-12) I usually can be within about 15-20 minutes unless I am babysitting grandsons!!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 04/19/2011 06:36:30

TCurran
Admiral

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588 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 15:54:45

Chuck, will do. Glad Sue was able to move you. Do you like the new slip?

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2011 : 18:08:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TCurran
 Chuck, will do. Glad Sue was able to move you. Do you like the new slip?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Tom! Yes, I do love it on D-dock, but its certainly the "high rent district". Wow, either of the two trawlers on either side of me could carry Confetti as a dingy in the davits on their sterns!!!! Being around such well maintained boats (Yachts!) is going to make me do a LOT more maintenance and restoration work on Confetti for sure!!! (which is not a bad thing!)

Cheers and take care of that shoulder young man!!!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2011 : 16:06:29

Here's a pic of our keel trunk after repairs were made. The guy added several layers of glass cloth all around and repainted it white. We did not have to drop the keel.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/22/2011 16:07:24

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