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fuel question

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pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/10/2011 : 14:12:28

The guy at the auto parts store told me today that premium gasoline has no ethanol in it. This sounds like hooey to me, but I am curious if anyone else has heard this. If this is true, is there any issues with burning high octane gas in an 8hp Honda??

Pat Duffy
1984 SK/SR #4113
Slàinte

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 14:43:09

Not true. Late model engines with appropriate fuel lines run fine on E-10.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 18:29:55

First I simply don't believe it...but then I'm from NY, so I do't believe anything... we've got a 1996 8hp Merc, 4 stroke...didn't treat the gas except during the winter (that all changed last season...we now own stock in Stabil) and ethanol ate away the gaskets in the carb, pump and fuel line linings (provided by Merc)...

Edited by - jerlim on 04/10/2011 18:30:51

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2011 : 20:01:32

I don't store gas and I don't use stabilizers. I carry two 3 gal tanks and alternate, not filling the empty tank until the tank in use is around 1/2 or I'm going farther afield. Fuel that is 60 days old goes into the car or other equipment where it will be used soon. The culprit in recent engines is the acidic goop that results from phase separation of the water/ethanol, not the ethanol. Current fuel mixes have warranted shelf lives of 60 or 90 days, and it is probably at least a week old when you get it. You have 3 easy choices - pay a premium for ETOH free blends, buy stabilizers and hope they aren't voodoo, or rotate your fuel. Incidentally, ETOH raises the octane rating of fuel and was commonly blended up to 5% in higher octane fuels even before the phase out of MTBE.

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Downbucket
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 03:12:21

Hi Dave:

My understanding of the ethanol issue, from attending seminars and independent readings, is that the problem arises when the fuel sits, undisturbed, for a period of time. Unlike outboard engines, snowblowers,* lawnmowers etc., cars do not sit idle for extended periods so the fuel is constantly in motion which prevents the phase separation. Similarly, your use of fuel creates frequent movement and so likely prevents this problem.

I've been adding and will continue to add stabilizer every time I buy fuel. Stabilizer is a lot less expensive than repairing the engine.

Will

*For those who live in the warmer climates and may not have had the dubious pleasure of experiencing an intimate relationship with this invention, a snowblower is a back saving device that moves that white rain to allow access to our boats in the winter (and to make paths for driving and walking).

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cat30
1st Mate

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73 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 04:50:05

unless i'm mistaken- did anyone answer the origianl queston- is there ethanol in premium fuel?

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 04:50:20

Hi octane made my 2 stroke rev up and die. Didn't like it.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 07:37:50

There is ethanol in premium.

Now, I'm from Connecticut, so perhaps I'll believe anything, but I've been led to understand that in high humidity, ethanol will leach moisture out of the air and combine with it... then when the temperature drops, it will "drop" the moisture, which is specifically the action called "phase separation". You end up with water in the bottom of the tank. No "goop" required.

Every marine mechanic tells me to stabilize every tank of gas--partly because E-10 loses octane faster than its predecessor, and partly because the new stabilizers have agents that inhibit phase separation. Marine Stabil claims to have some things that protect against corrosion (ethanol is highly corrosive)... But then I'm from Connecticut.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/11/2011 07:38:46

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 10:00:39

The pump I used to fill up my car yesterday had a "Contains 10% ethanol" sticker by all 3 pump handle holders.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 12:23:20

The goop comes from the OH radical on the ethanol oxidizing some of the various chemicals in the fuel blend that are also water soluble and some along the precipitate/fuel boundary. Octane loss comes from ETHO absorbing moisture or evaporating, both factors in determining shelf life. Stabil is one of several stabilizers that, to varying degrees, extended shelf life, several also did nothing. I still believe that the safest approach is to close the vent when not in use and stay within the shelf life. Good stabilizers don't hurt, but I have no need for them and you won't know if your fuel has absorbed enough moisture to exceed the stabilizer's capacity.

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piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 14:48:25

Pat, I also have Honda 8 and have used premium for years. No problems. But with gas prices, I recently switched to regular recently. I have not seen any changes yet.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 04/11/2011 14:48:59

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 17:31:20

All these 8-9.9 engines are made to run on 87 octane. Read your manuals. Higher octane gas is a waste of your money. It will not give you any more HP, Make your engine run cleaner or any of the other myths you've heard. Higher octane gas has an additive added to it(anti-knock compounds) to slow the burn rate of the gas down. This is needed in higher compression engines so the gas will burn smoothly across the top of the piston rather than exploding creating that pinging sound. So don't think your doing your engine any favors by putting in High Test gas, In reality you are putting in a slower burning fuel that your engine was not designed to run on. And yes , all fuel at the gas stations have ethanol, and ethanol is basically alcohol and alcohol attracts moisture. It wouldn't hurt to shake your gas tanks before you start the engine if its been a while since your last sail.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 18:25:24

I will also endorse closing the vent on your gas tank when you're done running the engine (if you can figure out a way to remember to open it). As the air temp goes up and down, the tank will inhale and exhale air through the vent. Each inhale (typically at night) will provide more humidity that the ethanol can latch onto and then later potentially release as water in your tank.

And Scott is right--use the grade the engine is built for. Higher is not "better"--it's just different. The same goes for cars. Octanes below or above spec can build carbon due to incorrect ignition rates, and carbon works like little glow-plugs to cause pre-ignition, which is "knock".

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/11/2011 18:33:44

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 19:40:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I will also endorse closing the vent on your gas tank when you're done running the engine (if you can figure out a way to remember to open it).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's hard for us to forget to open the vent. We disconnect our hose and burn the gas out of the carb every time (also a good idea to prevent ethanol issues). When we reconnect the fuel line on a warm day, the accumulated pressure causes us to get gas all over our hands. That tends to make you remember to open the vent every time.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2011 : 21:09:31

And forgetting to open the vent will quickly remind you as the engine starves for gas and dies. I my case in the middle of the fairway I was backing down. Fortunately a quick release of the valve, couple of quick pumps on the ball, and about three pulls later it was running again.

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