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Roller Furler Decision

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/11/2011 : 18:59:47

So here's the thing, I called a couple of local sail lofts for recommendations on riggers to install my roller furler.

Both recommended the same companies but one mentioned that they've had comments from a few of their customers that one of the riggers is sometimes a "little" sloppy. Nothing real bad, just not up to the same standards as other companies. When I questioned them a little more it sounded more like maybe the guy just didn't tidy things up as much as the other company.

The other loft mentioned that the other rigging company does good work but they take their time getting around to doing your job and they don't always show up when they say they will. The first loft agreed when I questioned them about the above statement. Both said if I could pin the slow guy down and get him to guarantee to do the job on a given day they would be OK.

BTW, supposedly both companies have been in business over 15 years and have both installed well over 200 furlers each. The "sloppy" guy said he could MIGHT be able to install my furler on Monday. The "slow" guy said it would be 7 - 10 days before he could get to it.

So here's the real dilemma. Both lofts mentioned the "sloppy" guys name first and his price for installing the furler was $150.00 without replacing the head-stay. We didn't discuss head-stay pricing.

The "slow" guys price is $360.00 just to install the furler plus $147.00 for a new head-stay. $507.00 + tax. Plus I have to drop the mast myself. The "sloppy" guy will climb the mast.

Overall, both lofts said both riggers have been around a long time and do good work. One may do a cleaner job but the other is slow getting to your job.

I'm really on the fence about this so please give me your opinions.

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 19:18:03

Sloppy, how? Does he leave the packing materials just lying about afterwards or is the furler a mess? If he's just not cleaning up the work area, I don't see a problem going with him. As to the non-committal slow guy, if he doesn't care to have my business, I don't care to hire him.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 19:47:59

I never could get a really clear understanding of what they meant by sloppy. As near as I could tell it was more like if glue seeped out of a joint he might not clean it up as good as it ought to be or maybe he didn't take the time to properly align the fairleads down the side of the boat.

This is a just a guess because they couldn't really give me a good description of what they meant.

It would seem if he was really bad he would have gone out of business years ago but as I stated, both lofts (one, very well known nationally) mentioned his name first. Not that that means anything!

I'm going to call WM and maybe another loft tomorrow to see what they say about both. Oh yeah, and maybe the yard located in my marina.

I'd like to get some more opinions if possible.

Edited by - GaryB on 05/11/2011 19:50:23

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 19:56:09

Hmmmmm... The guy with the substantially higher price, and who also knew to quote the new forestay, just happens to be the busiest... while the other guy is available right way... Hmmmmmm. I agree--"sloppy" is a pretty vague measurement, but it sorta sounds like the pricey guy is the favorite in that neighborhood.

(The other guy is climbing the mast to install a new forestay? Interesting operation.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/11/2011 19:58:14

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2011 : 20:57:27

The sloppy guy and I discussed the possiblity of having to replace the stay. We just didn't talk price yet.

I'm assuming he would climb the mast to get a measurement of the length if the stay was OK and possibly to install the restrainer.

He was going to try and fit me in between a couple of other bigger jobs he has and Monday was not a firm date.

I was surprised at the $150 quote. I was expecting around $250 - $300 from what I'd heard before. I was a little surprised at the $360 for labor.

From talking with the lofts I seriously got the feeling they were a little leary of the pricey guy because of him taking a long time to get to the job and then maybe or maybe not showing up when he said he would.

Maybe I should go with the one that has the best website!

Hopefully I'll have a better idea who or which one to use after making a few more calls tomorrow.

How does $147 for a new stay sound?

Edited by - GaryB on 05/11/2011 21:00:07

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2011 : 06:01:04

I am not entirely pleased with the rigger I used. I paid $187 for a new headstay. I thought he was going to install 1 swage fitting and 1 Sta-lok. He installed two swages.

He installed a toggle with a 3/8" hole while the pin in the masthead is 5/16". He said I could get a sleeve to make up the difference.

The mouth of the toggle is also too wide for the masthead - he suggested bending it to make it fit. He explained that Catalina must have sourced mastheads from different suppliers.

In rerosepct - why did he ask me for the pin diameters if he wasn't going to install the correct size toggle?

With the knowledge I have acquired during this process I now know what questions to ask before ordering stays in the future.

Your rigger selection may be a crap shoot.

Edited by - OJ on 05/12/2011 07:22:16

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2011 : 10:43:50

I've called a couple of boatyards in the area and WM (worthless). The "slow" guys are getting good reviews from several of the places I've called but all said he was very busy.

I found a new guy that just opened 3 months ago but has years of experience working for other people including the "slow" guy about 10 years ago. He's available now and said around $375 for labor on the top side (he charges for actual time worked). He was pretty sure he could do it for less.

He also knows the "sloppy" guy and says he does good work but is also busy. I'm getting more and more leery of the "sloppy" guys $150 quote.

My marine yard said they could do the job for $600.00 with a new headstay. They would also charge for actual time.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2011 : 19:04:09

Gary, why not do it yourself? While doing Penny's bottom in the yard, I watch two guys install one on their Catalina 27 right next to me. It took them about 2 1/2 hours and neither had done it before. The only input I had was to show them how to insure the line from the bail was exactly 90 degrees. They did not change the forestay. I saw them at the Mug Race and they said it was working perfectly.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2011 : 19:23:20

That was my original plan and then I got the first quote of $150 and said it wasn't worth my time to do it myself. Now getting more quotes that are probably more realistic I'm beginning to think about it again.

My only concern is getting the forestay re-swaged. Not sure how to do that since the stay has to be inside the foils before the new fitting is swaged onto the wire.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2011 : 19:25:57

Today I've been leaning towards using the "slow" guy as he seems to have good recommendations by several people but I can't seem to get him to call me back. Even sent him an email asking him to call to discuss the job.

Kinda feeling like the comments are coming true already.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2011 : 20:59:56

CD's forestay with all hardware including an open-body turnbuckle is $110. You can expect the pins will fit... Is your standing rigging original? If so, you might as well go for it now.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/12/2011 21:01:58

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2011 : 13:15:59

I thought they were a little high on the forestay too but my old turnbuckle is in good condition so I can probably scratch that off the list and save $35. Since I'm not sure how old my rigging is I'm going to replace the forestay just to be sure. I'll do the rest later. All of it appears to be in good condition.

I finally heard from the "slow" guys and it turns out they've been getting ready for the 1st Annual Spring Fling down in Freeport, TX (which I've heard about previously) so they've been out of the office setting up their booth and such.

The clarifed a couple of things. The labor charge quoted was on the high side in case they ran into any problems. They will only charge for the actual time and they feel they can get it done in under 4 hours.

So, after explaining to them that I would have to take a days vacation and that I didn't want it wasted because they didn't show up they guaranteed me (whatever that means) they would do my furler 1st thing on Monday, the 23rd. They could have squeezed me in on Thursday of next week but couldn't guarantee it.

So now all I have to do is drop my mast, get all my lights working again, and wait!

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2011 : 18:53:07

Went by today and met the owner and some of his crew at the "slow" guys place. Seems like they are really knowledgable and I feel much more at ease after visiting their shop. They re-affirmed they will meet me at the boat at 8 am Monday morning.

These guys have been in business over 20 years and so they must be doing something right. I'm probably going to pay more than I should but every time I try to go the cheap route I end up spending more money fixing the problems.

BTW, how long do my sheets need to be for a 150% roller furler sail? What diameter should I go with? Any suggestions on brands?

Edited by - GaryB on 05/16/2011 19:16:19

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2011 : 20:40:51

I intend to go with Regatta single braid for the incredibly soft feel on my next set. I'll probably change out this year to save my skin even though my 3/8" Stayset is still in great shape,. I also have a 1/2" set that came with Pearl because the PO was more comfortable gripping the larger diameter, but they are far to heavy in lighter air. The common call is 1.5 x boat length per side. I went with 50' instead, but will go 60' next time

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2011 : 06:37:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 . . . met the owner and some of his crew at the "slow" guys place . . . Seems like they are really knowledgable and I feel much more at ease . . . They re-affirmed they will meet me at the boat at 8 am Monday morning . . . have been in business over 20 years . . . I'm probably going to pay more than I should but every time I try to go the cheap route I end up spending more . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Better to have things done correctly rather than quickly. It isn't like this is an annual expense.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2011 : 06:53:52

After I made it clear to my rigger that I know what I am talking about - he agreed to install the correct size toggle. I had to source another box, make another trip to UPS, yachti, yachti, yachti . . .

I am glad I didn't have him install the furler - I may have never realized his error and proposed half-baked resoultion. Makes one wonder what mistakes/short-cuts other riggers make that customers are unaware of.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2011 : 18:42:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I intend to go with Regatta single braid for the incredibly soft feel on my next set. I'll probably change out this year to save my skin even though my 3/8" Stayset is still in great shape,. I also have a 1/2" set that came with Pearl because the PO was more comfortable gripping the larger diameter, but they are far to heavy in lighter air. The common call is 1.5 x boat length per side. I went with 50' instead, but will go 60' next time
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
60' per side?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2011 : 19:12:59

I agree on having it done correctly. The guy I'm using has made the comment several times that he strives to get the job done right the first time. He's also told me several times that if I have a problem he wants to hear from me, not one of my dock mates.

I'm very skeptical when someone starts laying a sales pitch on me. Because of that I've gotten reasonably good at determining when someone is shooting straight with me vs BS'ing me. I may be be proven wrong when this is all said and done but I get the feeling this guy is shooting straight.

To your other point, that's why I'm going to be there when they do this job. I want to make sure everything is done correctly and there's no messing around while I'm getting billed for the labor. I'm also hoping tp get some insider tips on how to maintain and operate this furler so it will last many years.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2011 : 20:07:28

Gary, sounds like a good choice on the installer... I can't speak to the sheet lengths--didn't have a 150 and didn't buy sheets for the sail I had, but I will agree with Dave's choice of Regatta single-braid, after my introduction to single-braid sheets on a friend's boat. If I still had Passage, it'd be on her, too--probably 3/8".

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/17/2011 20:08:50

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2011 : 06:34:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 . . . The guy I'm using strives to get the job done right the first time . . . if I have a problem he wants to hear from me, not one of my dock mates . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Wow, the above speaks volumes. Based on what he is saying it sounds like he may have attended a TQM seminar at some point. I'd probably hire him without an introduction.

Would be interested in hearing what he says about furler maintenace.

I think my rigger is taking my cue - he actually e-mailed me yesterday to tell me which make and model # eye jaw toggle he is installing. Probably some snot-nosed kid

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2011 : 09:41:25

Ok, after staring at this for a few minutes I have to admit I'm clueless. What does TQM stand for?

I'll send an update on furler maintenance if I get anything earth shattering.

Edited by - on

skybird
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2011 : 22:00:51

total quality management?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2011 : 14:58:00

Well, the riggers showed up right on time this morning. Furler is installed and ready to be loaded with the sail.

The winds were howling his morning and it wasn't practical to try and put the sail on. Besides, by the time they got finished it was getting pretty warm.

As luck would have it the marina decided today would be a good day to install a new aluminum ramp (after probably 20 years using the old wooden ramp) from the shore to the dock. So as the morning progressed we got to jump to the dock, walk across a small work barge, and finally across the new, not totally installed ramp. Minor inconvenience but never the less my luck!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2011 : 20:28:49

Sorry, 60' doubled or 30' each side. 50' is close, but the tail is marginal on the windward sheet. 55' would probably be adequate, but it's easier to turn a 60' into a 55' than the other way around if it's messy in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2011 : 20:38:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Sorry, 60' doubled or 30' each side. 50' is close, but the tail is marginal on the windward sheet. 55' would probably be adequate, but it's easier to turn a 60' into a 55' than the other way around if it's messy in the cockpit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for the clarification! I was holding off until someone clarified because I couldn't see how it would take 60' per side.

Edited by - on

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