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Cleaning a Tohatsu carburetor? (Update redux)

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delliottg
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Initially Posted - 05/19/2011 : 20:18:33

So, I'm working through my list of stuff for a hopeful launch this Saturday. I went out to change the oil in our Tohatsu, and it wouldn't start, or at least stay started. I think it burnt off the fuel in the bowl, and sucked in water from the fuel line. The fuel line is probably the only thing that I didn't treat with Stabil, and it's sat for 1-1/2 years. I've got it cleaned out, and was able to dry off the spark plugs and get some hopeful sounds out of the engine, but when I pulled the plugs the second time, there was definitely water on them.

So, I've pulled the carburetor off, but it's been a long time since I've cleaned one, can someone walk me through the steps for it? Pictures would be great if you have them.

Thanks!

David
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Edited by - delliottg on 10/10/2011 10:10:51

Davy J
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Response Posted - 05/19/2011 : 21:03:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but when I pulled the plugs the second time, there was definitely water on them. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've cleaned my Tohatsu carb a few times, but I've not had water on the plugs. Sounds like a different problem.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/19/2011 : 22:24:40

Well, I just jumped in (after taking pictures to make sure I could put it back together). There was definitely water inside the bowl as well as a bit of junk. I put it in my ultrasound cleaner and ran it through a few cycles to vibrate any crap off, dried it with compressed air and also blew out all the orifices (I think). I've got it back together now, and will install it again tomorrow afternoon & see what I get.

I think I might just donate my gas tank full of Stabil-ized gas to my neighbor (he offered me some free eggs from his hens, so that'll work), and simply replace the gas in the can so I know I have good gas. Really-really don't want to get out on the sound and not have a reliable engine if it's preventable.

Edited by - on

cks
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Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 11:21:11

My outboard (mercury 4 stroke) had the same problem last fall as I was bringing it in for the winter. I disassembled the carb, removed the main and idle jets and soaked them in carb cleaner for a few hours. I sprayed every orifice I could find with carb cleaner. I installed brand new sparks. Even then, I needed my electric starter and a little throttle boost while it was cranking to get it to turn over and start.

What I also found was that the idle screws in the newer models are under a brass cap that you have to drill and remove. It's working now, but for some reason, I can't get it to run as smoothly as it did before.

I'm going to try seafoam during the season to see if it'll help.

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Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 12:38:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's working now, but for some reason, I can't get it to run as smoothly as it did before.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While carburetor spray can remove most of the residues one would see in a carburetor the tiny orifices inside the jets, especially the idle jet, can retain particles that will further restrict the jet. You could try and soak them in a carburetor bath solution which is much more agressive than the spray or do as I did with my old Honda. Order all new jets and replace them. That cured my rough running engine pronto.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 12:48:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cks
 My outboard (mercury 4 stroke) had the same problem last fall as I was bringing it in for the winter. I disassembled the carb, removed the main and idle jets and soaked them in carb cleaner for a few hours. I sprayed every orifice I could find with carb cleaner. I installed brand new sparks. Even then, I needed my electric starter and a little throttle boost while it was cranking to get it to turn over and start.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your having to give it a little throttle to get it to start sounds like a problem I encountered whereas too much fuel was getting into the carb causing it to not start unless I manually opened up the throttle part way, but when the throttle was released, the outboard would sputter and stall. To check if you're getting too much gas (flooding) shine a light into the carb, pump the fuel bulb, then check for puddling. If you have a primer system, it could be stuck partially open dumping extra fuel into the barrel of the carb which is what I encountered.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/20/2011 12:49:31

delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/20/2011 : 18:24:10

It seems all is well. I put the carb back together, connected my other fuel tank to the line, and pumped though the disconnected feed line until I no longer got orange watery fuel. I think the inside of my steel can rusted, which sucks because it fits the space in the fuel locker perfectly. Fortunately I had a plastic one with no such problems. Once the fuel was running clear again with no tiny little globules of water in it, I reconnected the hoses, bolted the carb back up to the manifold, reattached the throttle linkages (had to move the oil dip stick out of the way) and started it up. It started right up, and continued to run nicely. It wasn't peeing much so I went & cranked up my water hose a bit. As I came back, I noticed a bit of spray coming from the carb & thought I must not have tightened it down properly. Hah, no, I'd forgotten to put the dip stick back in the hole, and oil was spraying everywhere! What an idiot!

Anyway, got the dip stick back in it's hole, cleaned up (most) of the oil it'd sprayed all over my ladder, and let it idle for about 15 minutes to warm up the oil (that's where this whole thing started gentle reader, I wanted to change the oil, that was about 24 hours ago). Backed out the bolt on the oil drain, readied the funnel & bottle to catch the oil, opened up the fill and backed out the bolt the last few turns. Oil spewed, right over the top of the funnel, all down my shirt, pants & left shoe. I was able to catch most of it (that wasn't already being worn) in the bottle, but what a mess.

I'm hoping that's my stupid trick of the season, and our launch tomorrow goes off without a hitch.

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cks
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Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 03:27:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your having to give it a little throttle to get it to start sounds like a problem I encountered whereas too much fuel was getting into the carb causing it to not start unless I manually opened up the throttle part way, but when the throttle was released, the outboard would sputter and stall. To check if you're getting too much gas (flooding) shine a light into the carb, pump the fuel bulb, then check for puddling. If you have a primer system, it could be stuck partially open dumping extra fuel into the barrel of the carb which is what I encountered. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow, exactly opposite of what I thought the problem may have been. I guess your solution was to get a new primer bulb (or line)? Mine was just replaced last season but I'll look out for it.

Edited by - cks on 05/21/2011 03:37:46

cks
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Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 03:35:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's working now, but for some reason, I can't get it to run as smoothly as it did before.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While carburetor spray can remove most of the residues one would see in a carburetor the tiny orifices inside the jets, especially the idle jet, can retain particles that will further restrict the jet. You could try and soak them in a carburetor bath solution which is much more agressive than the spray or do as I did with my old Honda. Order all new jets and replace them. That cured my rough running engine pronto.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Two questions. I was a little afraid of soaking the entire carb because of the rubber our (mercury and I also presume tohatsu) carbs have as part of the throttle linkage. I was afraid that soaking the entire thing could destroy the rubber- i know that carburetor cleaners will eat through plastic in no time.

Second, on my carb there were only two removable jets that I could see. But you're right about "other orifices" I sprayed through them best I could. Hopefully, either seafoam will do its magic or I'll pull it apart again next season. I can take the rough idling as long as it runs- unfortunately, it wasn't a problem that I could fix by adjusting the idle/fuel mixture screws.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/21/2011 : 13:44:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cks
 Wow, exactly opposite of what I thought the problem may have been. I guess your solution was to get a new primer bulb (or line)? Mine was just replaced last season but I'll look out for it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not referring to the fuel line bulb, but the primer on the carb. On my Merc, when I pull out the prime knob (choke) a plunger is depressed that puts fuel into the barrel of the carb prior to starting.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/21/2011 15:11:17

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/10/2011 : 20:43:47

(sorry kind of long, venting a bit)

Well, my cleaning job came back to bite me today. The engine stalled on me several times while trying to leave the marina, and we ended up uncomfortably close to our neighbor's boat (the same one I hit a couple of months ago) because the engine wouldn't stay started. I was finally able to get it to cooperate, and we motored out into the bay. Just as we cleared the mouth of the Duwamish River, I usually throttle back to set sails. As soon as I did, the engine started sputtering again, and wanted to quit unless I kept the RPM up over 2k. At 2k, I'm moving at about 5kts or so. I had deliberately idled out to the bay at about 3kts to help clear any crap out, but guess that didn't work out so well. Instead of going sailing, we decided to turn around and head back. Once in the pool outside our marina, I tried throttling down so see if we were going to be able to make a controlled approach to our dock. No such luck, every time I throttled down, the engine would die. Great.

Fortunately the marina directly south of ours had a wide open dock that we could pull into, and let me tell you, approaching a dock at 4-1/2 - 5 knots is something else! I cut the throttle about 40 yards out and we ghosted right up to the pier, all I had to do was jump over the side with a line, and we were good.

So now, we were about 200 yards from our slip, on a dock that you can't get off off unless you have the key or want to swim (or climb over razor wire). One of my best friends keeps his boat two docks over in the same marina, but neither he nor his wife were home when we tried calling them, so we were sort of stuck there.

I played with the carburetor & choke to see if I could find a setting where it'd run at around 1k, I figured I could make a safe approach and not feel too bad about jumping in and out of gear at that speed, but no dice. What to do, what to do?

I contemplated calling for a tow, but didn't really want to have another hit on my insurance. As a second to last ditch effort, I called my marina manager for advice. He offered to run over in a dinghy and tow us back. I had some misgivings about this, but it actually went better than expected. He towed us right down to our slip, and cast off as he was going by, and we just slid right in, probably didn't even need the help of another neighbor our manager had pre-arranged, but I was still glad he was there.

I pulled the carburetor off and was stunned at how much orange-ish crap came out of the bowl when I turned it over. I haven't opened it up yet, but expect it to be a mess on the inside. I'll do so before I go to bed and get it into the ultrasound cleaner again.

Tomorrow I'm going looking for gaskets for the carb, as well as a fuel-water separator.

Anyone got a good source for replacement gaskets for a Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8 4 stroke? I haven't been able to find them online yet.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/11/2011 : 08:11:55

Did you ever replace your metal fuel tank? Were you using it or the plastic tank? When was the last time you emptied out your fuel tanks? I dump mine at least once a month. It's just too easy to replace 4 gallons of fuel rather than risk it going bad in the tank.

I dump mine in my truck using a clear siphon hose with a check valve on one end so you can start the siphon without using your mouth. I've never seen anything but clean fuel go through the hose.

I also make sure I completely close the vent on the tank at the end of the day so the tank cannot "breathe" each day as the air warms and cools. This helps reduce the amount of moist air that the tank can "breathe" in.

Hope you get this issue resolved quickly and cheaply. Let us know what you find out.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/11/2011 08:13:20

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/11/2011 : 08:27:43

Still haven't found a replacement for my metal tank, so I've been using the 3 gallon plastic tank that came with the outboard. The fuel is brand new, I dumped all the old fuel into my pressure washer can, but I don't think there was anything wrong with it. I think this is residual stuff from the original incident. Of course, I don't know that for sure, but I've found what looks like orange sand inside the carb, and I'm guessing that's rust particles small enough to get through three filters and accumulate. It's in all the nooks and crannys as well as encrusted on the gasket surfaces. E-10 may not affect engine performance, but it's very good at causing mischief with a fuel system that uses a steel tank.

Right now I'm trying to find a source for the two gaskets to the intake manifold that aren't in Germany, France, Holland, or Russia. The part number I'm looking for is 3v1-02011-0, and it's seemingly not sold in the US.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/11/2011 : 13:19:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Still haven't found a replacement for my metal tank, so I've been using the 3 gallon plastic tank that came with the outboard. The fuel is brand new, I dumped all the old fuel into my pressure washer can, but I don't think there was anything wrong with it. I think this is residual stuff from the original incident. Of course, I don't know that for sure, but I've found what looks like orange sand inside the carb, and I'm guessing that's rust particles small enough to get through three filters and accumulate. It's in all the nooks and crannys as well as encrusted on the gasket surfaces. E-10 may not affect engine performance, but it's very good at causing mischief with a fuel system that uses a steel tank.

Right now I'm trying to find a source for the two gaskets to the intake manifold that aren't in Germany, France, Holland, or Russia. The part number I'm looking for is 3v1-02011-0, and it's seemingly not sold in the US.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Looking at OnlineOutboards.com I found a link for Tohatsu Outboards (www.tohatsuoutboardparts.com). Click on the Parts Book tab and scroll down to VIEW 4-Stroke Nissan NSF9.8A2 2004 002N21051-1.

Once the parts manual opens scroll to printed Page 8 in the catalogue and look at Ref #4-7.

I'm guessing you can order the parts online directly from the above site or possibly from Online Outboards.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/11/2011 13:30:16

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/11/2011 : 17:15:39

Thanks Gary, I appreciate the effort.

I found what I was looking for at EastMarine.us after searching fruitlessly around Seattle for the parts.

In the process, I picked up a Racor fuel / water separator / filter and spare filter, as well as new inserts for my inline filter. Completely OT, but I also picked up new handheld and 12 ga. flares since all of ours are out of date now.

I'm not sure what else I can do to mitigate this problem, but I surely don't want to be in the situation I was in yesterday again. What a pain, even if it was a relatively painless tow from my marina manager. I don't like feeling helpless, even if we were safely tied up on a transient dock. It was still a very unpleasant situation to be in, and I thought I'd already taken steps to prevent exactly what happened.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/17/2011 : 21:23:36

Got back down to the boat today to install my (hopefully) clean as a whistle carburetor. I ran it through the ultrasonic cleaner a few more times, then dried it with compressed air. I kept getting this white precipitate particularly in inside corners, so I also let it air dry for a couple of days. I brought a bronze brush and some canned air with me to do a final cleanup at the boat before I put it all back together. Getting the carb on while keeping the new manifold gaskets in place on the bolts was a bit of a trick while hanging over the transom, but I got it done with the help of some blue painter's tape to hold things in place till I got the bolts started.

I also installed the Racor fuel / water separator filter, and switched out the old clear glass filter for a new one (the old one was very orange colored from the rusty water, plus there was a fair amount of particulate matter inside of it.

Hopefully I'll never have to go through a situation like this again. I think I've done what I can to ameliorate it, but I thought that last time, and here we are.

Here are a few pictures of the installation:

Notice that it's idling at 470 RPM, last week I couldn't get it down below 2k w/o stalling out. I ran it in both forward & reverse at a complete idle with no problems. Last weekend just putting it in gear would stall it as well, unless it was wound up (which isn't a good plan for shifting into and out of gear).

Edited by - delliottg on 09/26/2011 16:41:58

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/19/2011 : 17:17:00

Nice work, David!

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/24/2011 : 21:09:52

Rita & headed down to the boat today for a sail, went to start the outboard to warm it up, and the exact same thing is happening again, it'll only run above about 1800 rpm. Fortunately we discovered this before we ever left the marina, so we didn't end up getting towed in again.

I played with the engine for about 30-40 minutes trying to get it to run at low rpms, but the lowest I could get it to run reliably was about 1800. Anything below that and it'd sputter and die and before it warmed up and needed to be choked, it wouldn't run below about 2400 rpm.

I finally gave up, ran the carburetor out of fuel (which is how I'd left it), and pulled it off the engine again. Opening it up, we found what looked for all the world, like yellow salt crystals in the bowl, and some of the white precipitate I mentioned in my last post. The "salt crystals" turned to a super fine dust as soon as you touched them, but they'd roll across the bottom of the bowl like a solid as long as you didn't touch them. I have no idea what they are, but I have to assume they're packed in tightly in the low speed jet body.

On the way home, we stopped at an auto parts store and bought a gallon of carburetor "dip" which you can soak the entire carb in. This is the recommended method on a couple of sites I've found that tell you how to clean the carburetor on a Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8. Theoretically, you're not supposed to remove the brass plug that covers the low speed jet (it's "illegal"? not sure how that works), so you can't actually get to it to clean it, but the "dip" will. I'm not sure how much I buy into this, but figure it's worth a shot before drilling out the plug (which I really don't want to do). They recommend letting the carb soak for a couple of days to "melt" the varnish, etc., again, I'm not so sure how much I buy into this method, but fortunately I bought two sets of manifold gaskets, so I can remount the assembly once it's clean again.

If anyone's got advice on how to go about cleaning the low speed jets on a Tohatsu/Nissan carburetor, I'm all ears.

What I don't understand at all is that the engine was performing beautifully last weekend, it would idle all the way down and stay running, even under load, and I deliberately ran it there for several minutes in both forward and reverse to create some suction on the other side of the low speed jets, and I couldn't kill it. Move forward one week, and it's like I never did any maintenance to the damn thing at all.

Sometimes I long for the simplicity of sailing my old catamaran, it had a paddle for an engine, took 25 minutes to rig & launch, and less to recover. Sail until you were too tired to keep going, or the sun was setting, head back to the launch and head home. No muss, no fuss. I'm really-really tired of working on my boat and not sailing it.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/25/2011 : 04:08:10

I think I would have to deep 6 this one (at least the carb)! I hate things that are not reliable, especially when there's no reason why it shouldn't be. I believe you said you replaced the tank and you have new fuel.

The more I think about this it would almost have to be something downstream of the fuel filter causing this unless the fuel itself is bad. Are you buying your gas at the same place every time? If so, you might try buying it at a different station and maybe even try a different brand.

Could it be the carb is corroding when left with air in it (IE: running the bowl dry)? Then when you run fuel through it it dissolves the corrosion into the white precipitate you mention?

Is it possible someone is putting something in your tank when you're not around?

Just throwing out suggestions.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/25/2011 04:15:32

DaveR
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Response Posted - 09/25/2011 : 06:47:13

I know you've seen my comment on another thread about the dip and I was just going to recommend it. It's great stuff. Leave it for a couple days, should do the trick.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/25/2011 : 11:52:41

Gary, the gas probably is from the same source, I buy it so rarely, I'm not actually sure. The tank isn't new, but it's been cleaned and filled with new gas. All the filters have been changed, as well as adding the Racor filter into the mix. Part of the fuel line has been replaced, but I ran probably a pint of clean fuel through the one line that wasn't replaced to clean it out, same with the hose assembly from the tank. Any adulterants in the tank now have to go through four filters before they get to the carburetor. It's possible my next door neighbor with the brand new Nissan is angry enough at me to do something to my tank, but I'd like to think not, and in any case, nothing should get past the Racor (I hope).

I've found where I can order a new carburetor for about $160 or so, but I'm hoping that's not necessary after this round through the "dip". If it goes south again, I'll be buying a new carb just to be done with it. I agree about the wanting things to just be reliable, that's why I bought this engine in the first place, to replace one I didn't have full trust in. I've never had much luck with small engines, so I like to have new ones so I don't have to go through exactly this. All of this could (probably) have been prevented by either not using E10 gasoline (so it could go through phase separation and rust out my steel tank) or me having taken the (now obvious) step of checking the fuel in a steel tank before blithely hooking it up and pumping rusty water into the engine.

Edit: regarding running the bowl dry, that's something I've never bothered to do, and judging by the lack of lacquer or other coatings (as opposed to particulates), I'm not sure I see the point. Of course part of that could be the same E10 gas having cleaning properties that E0 gas might not.

Edited by - delliottg on 09/25/2011 11:56:04

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 09/25/2011 : 17:24:13

I have frequently used dips for cleaning and been very happy with the results. If the dip doesn't work, you might start thinking about dealer service. That will give you somebody to complain to if it isn't totally fixed.

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DaveR
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Response Posted - 09/26/2011 : 06:33:24

What did you use for a liquid when you put it in the ultrasonic cleaner? Your gunk in the bowl kind of sounds like residue left from cleaning. Did you blow compressed air (should be close to 100 psi) through it when done? Even after the dip, let it dry good and blow air through it. Be careful and use eye protection.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/26/2011 : 07:39:39

Dave,
I used Simple Green and mostly water for the cleaning solution. Then a long rinse afterward in hot water, followed by canned air, followed by compressed air at about 80 psi. I agree that the precipitate looks like it could bs some sort of residue from the cleaning solution. Perhaps aluminum reacts a bit with Simple Green? I use the ultrasound mostly for cleaning firearm actions, but they're either steel or polycarbonate, so I've never seen the precipitate before.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 09/26/2011 : 13:45:29

You will find the dips to be far more aggressive.

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Jefffriday
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Response Posted - 09/26/2011 : 15:12:11

I think that to be the Idle jet is blocked. Pull the Idle jet and run a wire through it. I would bet money it is blocked (a VERY tiny jet) it is recessed about 1/2 inch into the casting, a small slot-headed screwdriver that barely fits in the casting will work (I ground one down to fit) I have also used a piece of wire run through it while installed with success. this is a pretty common problem on these motors. I have fixed four of them this season for other club members (2 Tohatsu 9.8's) I am not home currently, but I will try to post a picture from the service manual tomorrow night so you can see where the jets are located. It's possible there is something somewhere else, but not likely...

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