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Winching my C250 into the slip?

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TakeFive
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Initially Posted - 05/28/2011 : 11:39:36

Over on another section I started to discuss my dock configuration in the context of dock line selection. I thought I should start a new thread on a related but different topic.

Because I was nice to the marina manager last year, she gave me the only single slip in the whole marina in my size range (just inside a T-dock, marked below in red). There are no pilings in the water, so those who share double slips have to rely on fenders to keep from hitting the finger docks:

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So after relying on fenders all last year, this year I have enough cleats and surrounding docks to keep the boat from rubbing the fenders, although I'll probably leave them out just in case:

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Note that in the above pic I orient the boat diagonally to reduce stresses on the lines by aligning (somewhat) with the river current.

This gets to the point of my question. Docking on an ebb current is a piece of cake. Since the current is pushing the boat out of the slip and toward the T, I idle the motor in reverse and back in ever so slowly.

However, a flood current is a different story. When backing in with the current (therefore faster than I would like) I grab the spring line labeled "#1" with a boat hook and get it over the midship cleat as quickly as possible. That guarantees that our outboard or fragile rudder will not crash against the dock when backing in. I had hoped that continued backing against the spring line would pull the boat gently against the T-dock (as happened in my slip last year). But the currents are a little stronger in this dock, and they push the bow of the boat (and the underwater keel) hard to starboard, usually ending up like this:

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Last night, with just the gentlest SW breeze, it took about 5 minutes of pulling as hard as I could and constantly readjusting my footing so I would not fall off the boat to get the bow pulled in enough to secure the line. In a stronger blow there is no way I would be able to do this. So I am thinking of attaching an additional line, about 30' long, to the cleat on the T-dock, leading it around the bow cleat (or perhaps around the base of the bow pulpit), and back to the winch so I could crank the bow toward the T-dock:
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We would remove this line from the winch once we are docked and put a loop over the bow cleat to secure the boat.

Have any of you had to do something like this to get your boat into a slip? Any suggestions of something better?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/28/2011 11:54:12

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 12:38:54

I suspect you would have too much drag on the bow cleat, which could end up ripping it off the deck. Some sort of block is probably required for that method, but that would be tricky to rig during the approach.

First, as soon as the spring-line is on the midship cleat, I'd turn the rudder to port (tiller to starboard) to get the current to push the stern to starboard and pivot the boat on the spring line as it's pulled toward the T dock.

Next, have you tried turning the outboard to starboard and backing down, to help swing the stern to starboard, pivoting on the spring line while it pulls the boat into the T-dock? Alternatively, depending on the speed of the current, you might turn the outboard to port in forward gear to pivot the bow in against the spring line as the current moves you back--that is if the current can pull you back while the outboard is at low speed in forward gear and turned hard over.

I'm speculating here--it's generally a matter of feel... but often times the spring line to amidships lets you use power to pivot the boat.

Finally, have you considered going in forward? That would make the breeze more your friend, and allow the outboard to "drag" you down and maintain your alignment better. It would be best to have somebody on the bow to pick up the spring line, so it wouldn't be an easy single-handed maneuver, but it's how I dock Sarge (usually single-handed). I find that the maneuver is easier against wind and side-currents, and the hookups are easier. And if something goes wrong, your bow (and mine) can take a shot better than your stern!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/28/2011 13:10:38

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 14:38:03

Try a [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15645&SearchTerms=dock-a-matic"]dock-a-matic[/url]

This may be the single best tip I've seen on this forum.

Edited by - on

Renzo
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 15:30:05

Man! I thought I had a bad docking situation being on the outside bend of a river where the current is strongest and changes every time it rains and the wind strengh and direction can either help, hinder or make docking near impossibe. Yours is much more challenging because it looks like you don't have much room to abort your aproach and take a second (or third)run at it. I agree with the suggestion to try heading in to the dock rather than backing in, more control and less chanch for damage. If the marina will allow it, I would pad the hell out of the end of the finger dock just incase you miss the spring line. Also,can you go past your dock and back toward the end of the "T" section (against the current)until you are within reach of your spring line and then (with your spring line attached amidship) turn and motor foward in to the slip pivioting around the end of the "T" dock.
Good luck and thanks for making me feel beter about my dock

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 16:19:10

Thanks for the suggestions. I only have a couple minutes to reply. Pulling in forward is really not an option because my wife is terrified of going on the foredeck, and doesn't want to take the helm. Backing in allows us to grab the spring line from the cockpit first, and once that's secured I leave the helm and go to the foredeck to do the rest while my wife secures the rest of the lines at the stern.

The suggestions about turning the rudder (and motor, since I have a really nice hard link) with forward and/or reverse thrust did not seem to work to move the bow closer to the T-dock. The current was just too strong. I think the keel is broaching.

All this may be academic anyway. I think I'm going to move back to the slip I had last year. I was at the dock today in 17 kt breeze, and not happy with the way the boat was bouncing around. Also, way too much driftwood all the time - you can see in the photo that there's an open fetch and the flood current just pushes all the crap right into my slip. In theory, the ebb should push it back out, but instead it creates a logjam behind my transom and collects there. The brand now paint (Pettit Vivid - a hard paint!) wore off the trailing edge of the rudder at the waterline after only a week!

Also, there's a guy next to me on the outside of the T-dock who's a total a$$, has complained about everything from the position of my shore power cable to the location of my cleats (as if any of this affects him) ,and I suspect he disconnected my shore power the other day to get under my skin. I've never complained about the huge dock box he put at the end of the T, which he obnoxiously located on my side so I can't get to the cleat if I put it on the end of the dock. (This box is clearly visible on the satellite pic above.)

Much as I like having a T-dock for the length of my boat, my old slip was much better protected from both weather, current, and debris. The guy who was in my slip last year left because of a dispute with a neighbor, and I think I've learned the hard way who his dispute was with.

This pic (oriented north-up) shows both my new slip and the one from last year:

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Edited by - TakeFive on 05/28/2011 17:07:39

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 16:57:05

I think you'll find it easier if you take the spring line along with you when you leave. Secure it to a midship cleat, I have mine on the jib track, and simply drop the loop over the cleat as you pass by. You're far less likely to hit the dock if you don't have to hurry to secure a line to your boat. My wife easily drops the loop over the end of the dock from the front starboard side of the cockpit. We have a convenient piling but a cleat is as easy. I've done it both ways. That way, nobody has to be on the foredeck as you approach the slip. It makes coming in singlehanded a breeze.

BTW, I have cheap, Walmart fenders (<$10) permanently attached to my slip at rubrail height in the event I slide too far to starboard on approach. That might help with your current issue.

Edited by - John Russell on 05/28/2011 17:01:03

jerlim
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 17:30:00

I suggest boating is not a team sport...the Captain makes the decisions and the crew - even the Admiral - follow as directed...reconsider docking bow first, and training the crew (and Admiral) of their roles...maybe easier said than done, but been there done that...

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 17:55:07

Jerry, I respectfully disagree. Telling somebody to go on the foredeck when it is not necessary and risking the discomfort (Fear??? Wrath???) of the crew (especially the "Admiral") violates the first responsibility of the Captain: To assure the well-being of his/her crew. There is no reason to be on the foredeck while docking in most instances. I've never had anyone up there. It can be safely accomplished from the cockpit with a few simple techniques.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 18:01:47

There are many reasons why I dock stern in. Much has to do with the boat controlling better in reverse through the fairway with cross currents. Another is the difficulty boarding the bow with short finger docks. These were thoroughly explained in a thread last year. Can't find it right now.

Ordering the Admiral to do something she has expressed fear over is a good way to force a choice between boat & marriage. I'd prefer to have both.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 18:13:19

Your tiller would need to be hard to starboard so the current would be pushing the stern to starboard, but if you're going to back down with the outboard, it's tiller would need to be hard to port so you're thrusting in the same direction as the current push. That means you'd need to disconnect your hard link to do that maneuver. That would probably ease the strain on the line while you're trying to tie up.

You could rig a snatch block to your bow cleat to reduce friction because all you're trying to do is redirect force, not use the cleat for it's intended purpose. You might rig the snatchblock to pull equally against both bow cleats to reduce the amount of force applied to each.

I know all about tough to get into slips, my original slip in my marina was really tough, but I got lots of good advice here & figured out how to get in without hitting my neighbor. Fortunately I now have a down river slip that's a lot easier to hit than my previous two up river slips. For me, having the hard link was a real boon, but it sounds like in your docking situation, it might actually be working against you.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 18:44:14

Here's something else you could try. The line in your first drawing labeled "Remove for boarding" - leave it loosely attached, with a float or fender in-line aft of where you attach it to your stern cleat. When you come back in, pick it up with your boat hook after attaching the spring line. This will angle the stern over to the starboard side of the slip. Then, with your 30-35' line attached to your port bow cleat and run back to the cockpit in hand, get off on the starboard dock, walk around the stern to the bow and pull the bow to the port side end of the T pier.
Just thinking out loud!

Also, if you stay at the end of the T, you should not, for even a moment, tolerate the other guy's dock box in your space. I would demand that the marina management people require him to move it to his side.

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/28/2011 18:52:19

JohnP
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 19:06:50

Rick,

Having a jerk for a dock neighbor takes a lot of fun out of the experience. My friend with a C-25 in Rhode Island used to have a big old grouch nearby who made all kinds of trouble.

If you plan to stay in the new slip, perhaps you could back in easily by combining the 2 lines to slip over the cleat - the spring line and the adjustable bow line/snatch block led back to the cockpit. Using the Dock-Matic with a dedicated short boat hook might reduce these challenging conditions to an interesting routine.

But you say you might just move back to the old slip to avoid the docking and the personality problems.

Good luck!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 20:45:34

Don't get me wrong--the Dock-a-Matic is a great idea for getting a spring-line on a dock cleat from your boat. But in this case, picking up the spring line from your dock with a boat-hook is not that different... The issue here is doing that expeditiously and then positioning the boat against the spring line. I do it almost every day, going bow-in, grabbing a line from the cockpit and dropping it on a cockpit-accessible midship cleat as I enter. Then, depending on wind/current conditions, I might leave the engine idling in forward gear and turn it to position the boat relative to the finger dock as the spring-line pulls it in. I step off, hook up the bow lines, and then step back on and get the stern lines. Then I disengage the engine and wrap things up. In calm conditions, the engine can be disengaged earlier, but in wind and current, the engine and the spring-line work together to hold the boat where I want it. Bow-in seems to make that more fool-proof for me, and the bow hookups are easier from the dock, while the stern hookups are easier from the cockpit.

All that said, your story is suggesting to me that you move back to the other slip... But that's not something for us to vote on. Life's too short for putting up with @$$#0le$. (Your marina "friend" may have thought you'd be able to put up with him... Maybe the message is that this guy is going to cost them customers.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/28/2011 20:53:56

dlucier
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 21:31:13

It might be easier docking with an upstream dock rather than your current (no pun intended) downstream dock. I'd also look for an interior slip that is surrounded by boats as they will shield you somewhat from the wind.

My wife also doesn't like to leave the cockpit nor take the helm, which is fine with me, as I much prefer, and insist, that no one help me dock, even if I have four people on board. So learn how to dock the boat all by yourself.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/28/2011 : 23:43:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ...Also, if you stay at the end of the T, you should not, for even a moment, tolerate the other guy's dock box in your space. I would demand that the marina management people require him to move it to his side.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've been out all night. Some useful responses - I'll reread them tomorrow when I have a clearer head.

As for complaining about this guy, I hear he's been there for a long time. The satellite pics I showed are a year old, so both he and the box were there long before I moved in. I've only met him in passing three times, but all three times were kind of weird. And I could see a couple of other neighbors (really nice people) rolling their eyes when he was talking to me.

As you can see, my old slip is not that far away from the guy. I know better than to try to make a stink over him - I'll just move on. I just hope my old slip is still available. The 80% of the slips are without boats now, but the slips might be rented awaiting arrival of boats for the season.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/28/2011 23:44:48

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/29/2011 : 19:50:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 It might be easier docking with an upstream dock rather than your current (no pun intended) downstream dock. I'd also look for an interior slip that is surrounded by boats as they will shield you somewhat from the wind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The currents are tidal, so they flow both ways. You need to deal with both unless you're patient enough to wait for up to 7 hours.

Also, I should not have mentioned the unpleasant neighbor. The reason I'm moving is really because of the better protection from weather and debris deeper in the fairway. I've dealt with unpleasant neighbors before and that's not really a factor here - I was just venting a bit.

Now that I'm going back to my old slip with only a half-length finger dock on one side, backing in will be a requirement. The C250 has no side decks and a high freeboard, so boarding into the cockpit is the only viable option. Hence the need to back in so that the finger docks reach the boarding point.

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 05/29/2011 : 21:32:52

Rick, we use a little plastic step stool that fits in the coaming pockets when it's not in use. We use it to go over the side of the boat instead of using the boarding ladder.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/29/2011 : 21:40:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Rick, we use a little plastic step stool that fits in the coaming pockets when it's not in use. We use it to go over the side of the boat instead of using the boarding ladder.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You might have noticed that starting with the 1998 model year, Catalina molded a step into the coaming near the front of the cockpit. You can see it in my profile pic. The 1997 models that I saw do not have this. It make boarding into the cockpit much easier.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 05/30/2011 : 07:11:34

You are making this way too complicated in my opinion. If I can solo a 40 footer into my slip, you can do it with a 25. Here is how:

Bow first - never did understand why people back in - and then have a cleat on the track just a hair forward of the cockpit with a line attached. Attach this to a cleat on the dock - hopefully there is one that is directly below the cleat on the track. The vessel is now attached to the dock and you can take your time running your other lines.

As you drive in, position the boat where you want it, jump off cleat it. You are done. Leaving is the same. Let all of the other lines go except that spring, and then when you are ready to go just untie it and proceed to the cockpit.

sten

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Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 05/30/2011 : 08:26:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 You are making this way too complicated in my opinion. If I can solo a 40 footer into my slip, you can do it with a 25...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...but for that pesky current and high freeboard. I have similar challenges with a strong N or NW wind in my slip--I really miss that big fin keel. And I can understand your need to back into your original slip--I've tried boarding a few sailboats by climbing from the dock over the bow pulpit... You don't want to start a sail by making your crew do a trapeze act to get aboard.

I agree, the initial spring-line (also called the Dock-a-Matic in this crowd) is the key. I'll suggest that you start the process with a very short spring to the midship cleat--possibly shorter than you'll use later to complete your tie-up. That will pull the boat into the dock more expeditiously and prevent the yawing and loss of control, as you pivot with the outboard. Leave the engine running in gear, pushing or pulling against the spring--you can now step off the boat if you want. Next, if the current is pushing you in, get one bow line on--or a stern line if the current is pushing you out. You're now stable and can put the engine in neutral (or cut it). Then you can switch to the normal length spring-line (it could be the same line with two loops--I've done that...) and finish the process at your leisure.

The angle of pull of the short spring-line should help in that first step. Once your stable against the dock, you can do the rest in easy stages. But this is mostly speculation...

I have two midship cleats on each side--one by the cockpit for this purpose, and one further forward for my "normal" spring-lines.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/30/2011 08:44:20

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/30/2011 : 09:03:32

Thanks for all the advice. It is all useful food for thought.

If I were to stay in the new slip adjacent to the T-dock, then pulling in forward would be a very viable option. A spring line attached to a cleat on the end of the T could be reached quickly enough to get it attached to my midships track cleat. I could easily board by walking to the end of the T-dock to board into the cockpit.

However, please realize that the 250 is a different boat from the 25, and floating docks are very different from fixed ones. With the C250's lack of side decks and high freeboard, it is almost impossible to safely board a C250 from a floating dock to the bow or midships cabin top. It is much better to board into the cockpit, especially on 1998+ models that have the step molded into the coaming.

I have decided to move back to my old slip because it is more protected and accumulates less debris. You can see in the pictures that the finger docks are not long enough to reach the cockpit when pulled in bow first, and their tapered shape causes them to be extremely unstable at the end. So without the full-length T dock, backing in is the best option for safe boarding.

Also, you can't really see this in the picture, but there are no outer pilings between the slips. This makes a nice wide target for pulling into the slip, but it also means your spring line can only go at the end of the finger dock. Because the spring line is so far back in the slip, you cannot reach it from the cockpit until your bow is almost hitting the dock.

Another reason to pull in backwards is that the boat controls much better at slow speeds in reverse, especially with a hard link. As described in another thread last year (still can't find it), I stand in front of the wheel facing backwards while my wife handles the shift and throttle, and pull all the way from the river through the fairway into the slip in reverse. Once the boat is halfway into the slip I lock the wheel and grab the spring line, placing it on the midship cleat. Any speed of the boat is gently dissipated as the spring line pulls the boat over against the finger dock. It worked great for us all last year, and will work again once I've moved back to my old slip.

Someone mentioned getting next to a larger boat to protect from weather. That big boat two slips out from my old slip (see pic above) is a 35-foot Chris Craft tricabin, and it does a nice job of knocking down waves, southerly breezes, and debris that blows in through the fairway at slack water. The guy who owns it is a real nice guy (summer liveaboard), and he (and his cute girlfriend) were upset to see me move away from them. I hope they'll be glad to see me come back.

Edited by - TakeFive on 05/30/2011 10:08:35

redviking
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Response Posted - 05/31/2011 : 12:46:53

Some folks here with high freeboards have a PVC pipe contraption attached to the dock that allows them to grab the spring amidships and quickly attach it to the vessel. Once the mid section of the boat is attached, it cannot go anywhere - current or no curent, wind or no wind... My 58 foot mast and whalefin keel makes docking challenging - so I know...

sten

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 05/31/2011 : 14:30:56

If I can figure out how to take the video and do the deed at the same time, I'll post it here. I drop my spring line (Dock-o-matic) over the first piling on my finger slip from the forward end of the cockpit as I slide in dead slow. The line is the proper length to stop me short of the main dock. Easy-peasy. I could as easily drop it over the outermost cleat if the piling weren't there. Of course, I don't have to get around a wheel to get there. I can see where that could present a problem singlehanding but if you have crew, no sweat.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/31/2011 : 15:35:12

FYI, we moved back to our old slip last night. The slip next to me is empty (as it was last year), so I'm going to try to run a line to the other finger across the vacant slip to hold the boat away from the finger pier.

I did some additional measurements to confirm that the finger piers are not long enough to board into the cockpit when pulling forward. I had tried this last year and discovered this the hard way.

We also do not have any outer pilings. I measured the location of my midship cleat, and in order to attach a spring line to it pulling in forward I would need to slide it toward the front of the track. If I position it to be reachable from the cockpit it is outside the outermost cleat. I've never had a problem attaching the spring line when backing in, so there's no problem to solve there anyway.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/31/2011 : 17:58:02

Does your marina ever expect to use that slip for transient space?

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 05/31/2011 : 19:40:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Does your marina ever expect to use that slip for transient space?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
We're at ~75% vacancy, so there are lots of places for transients to go. The slip was officially vacant all last year - the guy with the big Chris Craft tied his dinghy up there. He said the owners are very laid back about people using vacant slips for dinghys, etc. I'll check with him about running the lines across his dinghy before doing it so he doesn't get upset. And if the dockmaster complains I'll take the lines down.

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.