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RUDDER HITS BOTTOM

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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2011 : 06:31:16

The canal I have to go out of to get to Albemarle Sound is shallow and has some stumps.
I don't mind the keel bumping the bottom now and then but the rudder takes some hard hits.
One day the Sound was rough with incoming waves and when the boat pitched and the rudder hit the bottom it came off the pintil's. It was really a mess. That rudder is very heavy and is a bear to put back on when the boat is pitching.

I am thinking of making a simple rudder and make it about 4" shorter.
I am going to try to make it out of wood and not fiberglass. If I can make one that works ok and does not hit the bottom I may fiberglass it.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

trptelf
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 06:38:02

Kick-up rudder. I don't have one on my Catalina, but had them when racing dinghies where they worked great.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1415&ParentCat=82

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 07:12:41

A kick-up rudder is probably the best solution, but, for ordinary daysailing, a slightly shorter homemade wood rudder might do the trick. The only significant concern, from a performance standpoint, is that the boat will round up more readily with a shorter rudder, but, if you reduce sail area and/or begin motoring sooner in strong winds, that shouldn't be a problem. It's a reasonable way to solve your problem with submerged stumps. I would always carry the other rudder, in case the homemade one broke.

Years ago, all boats had wooden rudders, and the old "barn door" rudders weren't particularly well-shaped by modern standards. Wood is sufficiently strong and durable, and the shape doesn't have to be precise, for general daysailing purposes.

If you decide to try it, it would be interesting to hear how it turned out, and how the boat performs.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 08:33:59

Sounds harrowing!

A kick-up seems logical, except that the one for the C-25 that I'm aware of (sold by CD) uses a shear-pin that is snapped by pressure against the foward edge of the blade--probably not the bottom. In other words, if you run it aground or hit a stump on the forward edge, it will snap the pin and pivot back. If you hit a hard bottom from pitching (a straight-upward force), I wonder whether it would give, or whether it would just break the pivot, in which case you have another problem--a broken rudder. The balanced blade also suggests to me that a straight upward force might not kick it up--the forward part of the blade is even further forward of the pivot point. Also, it is strongly advised not to be under way with a kick-up rudder in anything other than full-down position, in this case with the shear-pin in place. It is not designed for the torque of a partially raised blade.

A 4" shorter blade should work, although as Steve says with somewhat more tendency to round up. You could even design it with some "balance", like the blades on the C-25 from about 1987 on. Wood is OK if you keep it out of the water when you're not sailing--no amount of resin and mat can be trusted to keep moisture out during prolonged immersion, as most owners of the early, wood-cored fiberglass rudders have found. And I don't think you'll find it to be much lighter. Marine plywood, impregnated with epoxy and sheathed with fiberglass is not a light-weight combination.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/04/2011 08:39:52

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 09:52:08

Did you have a cotter pin through the pintle holding into the gudgeon? If you tokk a hit hard enught to force a pin through the gudgeon, I'd rather my rudder hit it than my keel.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 10:58:06

Pearl has a kick-up that some previous owner made by cutting and shaping the standard rudder and adding stainless side plates and a few other details. It's plenty heavy, sturdy, and kind of klunky, but I'm not ready to part with $1000 for a rudder with the gas shock and a polyethylene blade that isn't even balanced. If your rudder doesn't come out with a direct hit on the bottom, something is going to be damaged or broken. A kick-up will kick if you have enough forward motion to vector the upward force, but a shorter wood rudder would be a reasonable option. Make the rudder balanced and wider to offset the shorter length and rounding up shouldn't be a problem. If you are heeled so far that the 4" is all that would be in the water, you rudder isn't working anyway.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 11:39:33

At one time, didn't Hunter make a rudder that raised up vertically in a metal sleeve, sort of like the S2-7.9 rudders? Maybe something like that could be ordered for your boat.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 11:40:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by trptelf
 Kick-up rudder. I don't have one on my Catalina, but had them when racing dinghies where they worked great.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1415&ParentCat=82
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Kick-up rudder sounds great, But.....$925.00
I think I may try to make one myself.
Another thought is to use a short homemade rudder to go out the canal then put my regular rudder on once I get to deep water.
This I can do if it is not too rough.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 11:42:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Did you have a cotter pin through the pintle holding into the gudgeon? If you tokk a hit hard enught to force a pin through the gudgeon, I'd rather my rudder hit it than my keel.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I did not have a cotter pin in it.
Maybe a good idea.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 19:55:32

I built my own balanced rudder from the plans that I found here. I used White Oak that I laminated strips together. I then encased the whole thing whith 3 coats of West System epoxy and fiberglass cloth. Then faired with epoxy filler. Works very well but beleave that it is heavy. Making it 4 inches shorter would have been no problem.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2011 : 20:59:47

Shortening the rudder 4", about the length of my finger, doesn't seem like it buys you all that much.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2011 : 10:33:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Shortening the rudder 4", about the length of my finger, doesn't seem like it buys you all that much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It does when it would then be 4" shorter than the swing keel.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2011 : 11:18:24

Maybe you should simply install a purchase on the stern rail, lift the rudder way up and motor through the problem area and drop the rudder into place when you are clear.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2011 : 04:10:19

Maybe wait for a really low tide and mark the stumps.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2011 : 09:26:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Shortening the rudder 4", about the length of my finger, doesn't seem like it buys you all that much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It does when it would then be 4" shorter than the swing keel.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd be inclined to lower the swing keel 4 or so inches so that the more robust iron keel hits before the more fragile rudder.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2011 : 16:48:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Shortening the rudder 4", about the length of my finger, doesn't seem like it buys you all that much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It does when it would then be 4" shorter than the swing keel.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'd be inclined to lower the swing keel 4 or so inches so that the more robust iron keel hits before the more fragile rudder.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are days when I cannot get the swing keel through the sand. If I lowered it I would not be able to get out the canal on those days

On another note, I got in the water and walked around expecting to find "Stumps" but what I found was logs and I picked all of them I could find and moved them over to the side. There was 1 I could not move so I marked it. So I am now better off than I was.

I decided not to construct a new rudder. I am going to try to get out as soon as my tiller dries. I sanded it and applied 2 coats of Cabot Spar Varnish. I plan to apply a couple of more coats.

Another thought would be to move the boat to the Albemarle Plantation Marina (about 2 miles away) but then the Black Pearl would not be in my back yard. Bummer + slip fees

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5416 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2011 : 19:52:48

<s>Not sure how or whether this would work but, can you add a third gudgeon, equidistant above the existing top gudgeon? I'm not sure you would have enough transom to do this. If it worked, this way you could position the rudder in the top two gudgeons when transiting the canal, and return the rudder to the bottom two gudgeons while underway normally. It would be a pain repositioning the rudder and tiller (from under the traveller), but it could save your bacon (or at least the rudder)! </s>

Scratch that, I just looked at my transom. No way Jose!

Edited by - Voyager on 06/07/2011 19:56:32

dflynnatc
1st Mate

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USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2011 : 11:17:17

I have a spare rudder and have a similar grounding scenario that I have to deal with routinely. If I were to modify the second rudder... would I just keep the same profile, just scaled down? or do you think there is a newer shape that would trump the old shape.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2011 : 15:00:31

I think a kick-up rudder is your best all-round option.

Edited by - on

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