Association Forum - Bilge - sometimes wet/sometimes dry

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Bilge - sometimes wet/sometimes dry

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

ransley
Deckhand

Member Avatar

3 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/10/2011 : 03:27:01

I recently purchased an '84 fixed keel that has an on-again/off-again bilge mystery. Sometimes the bilge is absolutely dry... doesn't matter if the boat has been parked in the slip or if we've taken her out for a sail - dry!. This condition will last for a couple of weeks, then I'll check and there's 1/8" (or less) water in the bilge. I think it's only after we've been sailing in heavy air and done some serious heeling.

Is there some siphoning effect going on? There are 2 bilge pump hoses - 1 is the original, connected to the hand pump, and the other is connected to an after-market electric pump. A buddy suggested that the original set-up wasn't rigged to prevent back flow... any thoughts?

Edited by - ransley on 06/10/2011 03:29:38

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 03:55:09

First of all, ideally the bilge should be bone dry especially for most Cat 25s with outboards and no prop/shaft penetrating the hull. majority of water that does enter bilge comes from rainwater entering thru fittings or the companionway boards or possibly the forward hatch if some debri, etc interferes with the rubber gasket matl. So, the question comes up how come you notice some water in the bilge after sailing. One possibility is that rainwater had come into the bilge at some time earlier but then dried in the main cabin area. then when sailing, any water in the bilge but not necessarily visible from the access to the bilge then flows mostly from the aft end into the maincabin bilge area and it is then noticable from the access to the bilge in the main cabin. The water kind of seeps into the center section.

I have noticed this occassionally if there was a big rain and not alwaysbut sometimes I will have water accessible removing the bilge access cover. Most times it is one or two rags worth of sopping up the water. Sometimes no water at all. Then after sailing, some water reappears but usually musch less...maybe one rag worth if that of drying it out. Most times I have no water in the bilge after a rain...not sure what I did but perhaps some preventative maintenance improved things. I do not recall rebedding any fittings recently...but much less water if any this past year or two vs first two years I owned the boat...then I sometime had to scoop the weater out with a cup.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 05:51:24

By "serious heeling", if you're burying the rail somewhat, the water could be finding a little gap in your hull-deck joint under the rub-rail. I believe the C-25 has a "shoebox" hull-deck joint, so rain doesn't tend to enter that way except possibly through the bolt holes. (We can explain what rain is in another thread for you Texans.) But over the years, the sealant in the joint can let go, allowing some leaks from underneath. Not much you can do about that... It's a boat!

I doubt the water is from your original bilge pump--the outlet is high on the transom where you're not going to get a siphon effect unless you're already sinking. And if the hand pump works, its two check valves should prevent any significant quantity from moving "backwards". The automatic pump I can't speak to--where does it exit?

You could try sleuthing this out by drawing some lines with colored chalk around the bilge sump (keel stub). The next time you get water in the sump, look for gaps in the chalk line--that might give you an idea of where the water was flowing.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/10/2011 06:05:28

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 06:58:27

If you are on a dock where the boat is in a fixed position - the difference might be from which direction the rain comes from.

One thing Larry didn't mention above is his boat is a 1989 with the newer deck design . . . a significantly dryer boat than pre 89 models.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 07:10:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 . . . Not much you can do about that... It's a boat!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This reminds me of an exchange between Mrs. Edgar Kaufmann (original owner of Fallingwater) and Frank Lloyd Wright (architect of Fallingwater.) Kaufmann fired off a testy letter to Wright stating the house had 72 leaks to which Wright fired back that she should acquire 72 buckets as the house was built out of many natural products in a densely wooded location.

Edited by - OJ on 06/10/2011 07:32:58

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 08:45:28

The rain that came through my companioway collected in the low part of the cabin sole, but had no way to get to the bilge.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 09:51:02

There are probably other things to check on as you perhaps rule some of these ideas out. It is remote possibility and probably would happen all the time vs only when sailing but it's possible that the water may be coming in from the seacocks or a transducer location. Seacocks should be shut and if so, then this remote leakage source is then even more a remote possibility. But if your seacocks are open and you have a small imperceptible crack in a hose, leaning to one side may just be enough for the outside water rise a bit in the hoses and come out a crack that is normally not an issue when just sitting dockside. As Dave mentioned, you may be able to determine general leak path by chalking the perimeter of the bilge area and see if the leak comes from one side or the other.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 14:05:58

If you have had big, rapid temperature and humidity changes or if you have sailed through a cold water area after being docked in a warm water location, it might be condensation.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2011 : 18:59:15

I had a very similar problem with my 82 SK and finally traced it back to back flow through the electric bilge pump. I installed loop thingy from WM that let air in the hose at the top off the loop. Problem solved. My bilge outlet is in the bottom of the transom and in heavy weather waves hitting the aft of the boat would force water back thrugh the pump.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2011 : 09:42:23

Correction (to my post): I looked at a photo of Passage's transom, and am reminded that the bilge pump outlet is not as high on the transom as I remembered. If a wave hits it, it could send a little water through to the pump, and that could seep past the pump's check valves and down to the bilge. A slight upward loop in the line inside the "dumpster" should take care of that--venting it shouldn't be necessary--it's not low enough to create a siphon unless, as I said, the boat is already sinking.

Be aware that if your electric pump is connected through the manual pump, according to manufacturer's directions I've seen, it could reduce the capacity of the electric by as much as half, and diminish the manual pump also. If I had two pumps, I'd have two outlets. (Actually, on my current boat, I do, and I do.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/11/2011 09:43:17

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

Members Avatar

Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2011 : 10:15:49

I also have two separated hoses for manual and electric pump.
The electric pump hose has anti-siphon valve because all my outlets are just an inch above water line. Never had an water from them in the bilge.
You can see it on the right of this picture (green and white hoses)

PS: That guy is me cleaning the mess after purchase. Yes, I'm still able to get there, but not for long

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2011 : 12:22:58

Been there, done that... including sliding on my back under the fuel locker to work on the transom. Then the wind closed the hatch--total darkness...

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2011 : 15:39:27

The only addition to the above is that the ports/windows also tend to leak and that water can and does find it's way to the bilge. The only time I ever have water in the bilge -- and minimal at best -- is after a good soaking/downpour of rain. As I sail on salt water I can taste and verify no salt -- tougher to do on lakes.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2011 : 17:09:44

I've noticed on my boat that when sailing in higher winds and/or larger waves I tend to get water in the bilge too.

I chalk it up to water getting under the rub rail but I've also thought it might be water that got in during a rainy period and was sitting under the sole out of site until the boat heels while sailing.

Either way it's no more than a towels worth on a bad day. Usually a hand towel will soak it up.

Edited by - on

ransley
Deckhand

Members Avatar

3 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2011 : 06:21:47

Thanks to all of you for the advice... I've finally found the time to do some tinkering on the boat ("She's Right!") this week. Bilge is dry at the moment. Think I'll try the chalk and check the hoses. Keep you posted.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2011 : 04:33:16

I wouldn't get alarmed about water in the bilge until I looked down and the sole was floating. That could mean a critical leak.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2011 : 10:10:56

I only skimmed the other responses so forgive me if already posted but I think it's pretty important to determine if the water is fresh or salty. A quick taste test (dip finger, taste) works well. If it's salt water another consideration (besides the stuff mentioned above) is that the Catalina smile is causing minor keel separation. It doesn't take much (a few mm) for water to work it's way through the sump (usually via the keel bolts), saturate the wood, and eventually leak through the relatively thin fiberglass covering the wood. You mentioned seeing more water sometimes after sailing and that may be consistent with this type of damage. Another symptom that may help diagnose the problem (again, if the water is salty) is to check the torque on your keel bolts. There are different recommended torques for different keels (check with Catalina for the specs for your specific setup) but the main thing you're looking for is compression. If properly tightened keel bolts do not hold torque after a few days then you almost certainly have an issue with the wood rotting from water saturation. If they hold compression then you may be ok for now but if it turns out the water is leaking in via the keel sump the clock is ticking on when it will be a more significant problem. A final way to rule out the smile is to visually inspect the keel / keel sump margin either by hauling the boat out of the water or by diving on it. Either way you should note the margin is further "down" than most people realize. Often you can see the line along the top of the margin if you sort of "step back" and look at the big picture. More than likely your water is coming from something minor (like what was mentioned above) but considering how easy it is to rule out potentially more serious issues with your keel you may want to consider tasting the water, checking the torque, and/or visually inspecting the keel/sump margin. For what it's worth this is not just theory, I have personally seen this exact situation on a Catalina 25 and played a role in its repair.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 06:57:13

I'm going after this quirk right now, too. I'm focusing on the two stern passive ventilation scoops. The starboard clamshell wasn't connected to the port locker with 3 inch 'dryer' hose so water is spilling into both spaces but not the third (the keel bilge). If this will be punishment for "driving too fast" (apparent speed), I'll focus on sealing the compartments forward of the aft bilge, hooking up the ventilation hose to the port locker, and experiment with weep hole sizes to save on the number of bilge pump while maintaining buoyancy (if that is the design).

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2011 : 08:09:42

RRick,
When I replaced my ventilation hose I purchased a motor-home sewage drain hose from a R/V supply store. A lot more durable then dryer vent hose and cheaper as well. It was a tight fit but I softened the hose up with a heat gun and spread the opening a tad. If that hose is not in place the ability for the port dumpster (which also contains the gas tank shelf on earlier C25's) to ventilate properly is compromised greatly.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2011 : 01:46:35

Funny you said that Admiral. I went to the boat with an RV waste hose coupler to fit the "dryer hose" through the bulkhead but it was just too big. I'm sticking with "marine" labeled product (maybe nieve, but she's my first owned boat) so I bought the Attwood 3" cowling vent and it fits fine in the cut hole. My naivety also purchased a $30 blower. I'm worried about the discussed spilled water corroding the blower. AYBC seems to not require it.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2011 : 06:40:30

It may cost more, but you won't go wrong sticking with products labeled for your use. You can consider equivalent alternatives when you are more comfortable and experienced.

Edited by - on

ransley
Deckhand

Members Avatar

3 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 10:51:39

Thanks again to all the great responses to my original query... last week our bilge mystery took a turn for the serious! Due to the consistently miserable 105-degree (plus!) temperatures here in the DFW area, we haven't done much sailing this Summer. Consequently, I haven't been inclined to do any work on the boat either. We finally decided to go for an early morning outing, and just motor around for a bit. When we returned, I thought I should check the leak status since I hadn't looked for 2 or 3 weeks... I was shocked to find about 2 inches of water (almost 2 gallons) - significantly more than ever before. Obviously, since it hasn't rained here since early June, this water came from below, not above. I also noticed that the plastic bilge pump was leaning off to the side because its base had disintegrated (from the heat?). I bailed out the water and left the bilge dry. I checked it again 24 hours later and found about 2 quarts. I mopped it out again and checked this morning - about a quart. I purchased a new bilge pump, and installed it and tested the hoses, etc. but as I was working, I noticed that water was slowly seeping in from the aft end of the bilge - not a lot, but enough to see some accumulation. I checked the keel bolts - all snug, then I shined a flashlight past the most aft bolt where the bilge rises slightly and narrows significantly... that's where it's coming from. I'm guessing it's where the aft part of the keel attaches to the hull. There was probably a tiny crack there when we bought the boat March, and perhaps the extreme heat has caused it to expand. We were planning on a bottom job sometime this winter, but is there anything I could do to slow the seepage in the meantime. A glob of MarineTex? Silicon?

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

Members Avatar

Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 11:34:34

Hum, aft part of the keel seems strange, I don't think its that famous catalina smile.
Do you think its getting from hull to keel joint?
Aft part of the bilge is the lowest part so you can also get the water from the stern (cockpit drain hoses, thru-hulls).

If you are sure its getting from the keel joint, then haul out the boat. do the inspection for any cracks and repair it pernamently.
Keep in mind, that bellow the keel nuts, there is an plywood core that could be also wet or rotten.

If your keel bolds are not rusty, you are half-done

PS: Never, I'll say it a little bit louder, NEVER use a silion on a boat. If its wet it wont bond anyway as nothing will.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 14:08:32

You might try one more test. Get the bilge as dry as possible. Place rolled up paper towels aft of where you think the water is entering the boat. Come back 24 hours later and check that paper. If that paper is dry, you have narrowed it down. when you think you have the spot identified, measure how far it is from the center of the keel. After hauling the boat, use that measurement to focus on where to look on the hull. Hopefully, you can seal it from the outside.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 08/08/2011 : 18:16:40

There's a theory that you only seal windows, decks and so on from one side - the outside. This way, if there is a leak coming in from the outside, you see it. If you the seal inside - you may well be trapping the water between the outside and inside.

There are expoxies that are designed to be applied - underwater.

Tomas is absolutely right - avoid silicone, especially for leaks involving fiberglass. Someone used massive amounts of silicone around the aluminum window frames on our first C25. The windows still leaked and it took an insane amount of time to scrape it all off

Edited by - OJ on 08/08/2011 18:27:53

Ryan L
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 00:06:56

I have seen a Catalina 25 with "smile" type damage on the aft portion of the keel/sump margin (as well as the front). it lead to a similar leak to what you describe. I've also personally done underwater laminating repair on a similar type of damage. It's fairly straight forward. All done on SCUBA. One way to approach the repair:

Dive and inspect the area to see if a crack is visible. It will appear lower than you think (look for the faint trace of the line showing where the keel meets the keel sump).

Sand and scour away all paint and growth at least a few inches over and around the crack.

Cut out a piece of plastic (like part of a ziplock bag) that is the size and shape of the sanded area. It's important that this piece does not extend over the bottom paint.

Mix a batch of West Systems G-Flex. (note- I guess you can use another resin but I haven't found another that has the same semi-thick consistency, flexibility, and ability to cure underwater as G-Flex. Amazing stuff)

Spread a layer of G-Flex on the plastic.

Lay successive layers of fiberglass cloth and G-Flex (to wet each layer). Make sure the size of the layers are staggered per standard laminating procedure). 3 or 4 layers is probably enough?

Wet out the last layer with a lot of extra G-Flex.

Dive back to the crack bringing the laminate with you being careful it does not fold over as it moves through the water.

Press the center of the laminate onto the center of the crack and use a spreader to squish the excess G-Flex from the center to the edges.

Go away for a day or two.

Come back, peel off the plastic, do some finishing sanding if needed.

This may or may not stop the leak (if you have the crack) but it should greatly slow it down if nothing else.

There are plenty of other posts regarding how to repair the rotten wood etc inside the keel sump.

Now that I've written all this. Ignore it, pull the boat, and fix it right... :)

P.S. Generally stuff like Splash Zone does not work well in that area because there is too much flex.

Good luck...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ransley
 Thanks again to all the great responses to my original query... last week our bilge mystery took a turn for the serious! Due to the consistently miserable 105-degree (plus!) temperatures here in the DFW area, we haven't done much sailing this Summer. Consequently, I haven't been inclined to do any work on the boat either. We finally decided to go for an early morning outing, and just motor around for a bit. When we returned, I thought I should check the leak status since I hadn't looked for 2 or 3 weeks... I was shocked to find about 2 inches of water (almost 2 gallons) - significantly more than ever before. Obviously, since it hasn't rained here since early June, this water came from below, not above. I also noticed that the plastic bilge pump was leaning off to the side because its base had disintegrated (from the heat?). I bailed out the water and left the bilge dry. I checked it again 24 hours later and found about 2 quarts. I mopped it out again and checked this morning - about a quart. I purchased a new bilge pump, and installed it and tested the hoses, etc. but as I was working, I noticed that water was slowly seeping in from the aft end of the bilge - not a lot, but enough to see some accumulation. I checked the keel bolts - all snug, then I shined a flashlight past the most aft bolt where the bilge rises slightly and narrows significantly... that's where it's coming from. I'm guessing it's where the aft part of the keel attaches to the hull. There was probably a tiny crack there when we bought the boat March, and perhaps the extreme heat has caused it to expand. We were planning on a bottom job sometime this winter, but is there anything I could do to slow the seepage in the meantime. A glob of MarineTex? Silicon?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.