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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

C25 leaking

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Southerncharmer
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/05/2011 : 21:46:19

Friend of mine, new to sailing, bought a '84 C25 (tall rig, swing keel) and asked me to show him a few things about sailing a boat bigger than his 12' daysailer.

The boat had been delivered by trailer, launched and been sitting in the slip for a few days - seemingly not leaking (at worst, maybe a slight leak, not certain).

We sailed the boat for about 1 1/2 hours in a 3 to 10 kt breeze and put her away; next morning, the bilge was full with about 1/2" water above the sole just aft of the v-berth, next to the porta-potty head. (We found the bilge pump to be inoperative).

We need to find the leak before we can fix it - forum research so far points to possibly...

- keel cable volcano/thru-hull (my friend says some water came up in that area when he lowered the keel)

- rudder gudgeons

Any other suggestions/directions/advice/etc?

Would it help short-term to raise the keel if the volcano is the culprit?

I can't look at it for a few days so now doing the research part. As always, any help is much appreciated.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 05:02:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> the bilge was full with about 1/2" water above the sole just aft of the v-berth<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Welcome to the forum. Just to be clear, was the water under the cabin "liner" under the floor boards. Or is the water inside the cabin in front of the head?

Also, are you in freshwater or saltwater?

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 05:42:12

<< next morning, >>

Is that the next morning after these rainstorms? U on Lanier?

I had brown water in mine in front of the head after it rains when the rope in the anchor locker blocks the drain. It apparently runs in the liner and ends up there. Something like that...

Edited by - redeye on 07/06/2011 07:09:07

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 06:52:28

Was there rain that night?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 07:15:31

Scratch the gudgeons--they're well above the waterline. Look for evidence of damage to the fiberglass on the forward edge of the keel trunk in the bilge. This can be caused by a free-fall, even of just a foot or so, of the 1500 lb. keel due to a broken cable or attachment, or the keel being lifted by an underwater object and then released as the boat sails over it. You can use the Search feature above to look for the words "swing crack" in the C-25 Specific Forum--there are numerous threads, some with pictures. Try it also for "keel hose leak"--you'll get quite a few more threads. But before you start thinking all C-25s must be leaking, notice that the threads go back many years, and be aware that a few thousand swing-keel C-25s were built.

If you put the boat back on the trailer or have it lifted out, you can put more water in the bilge (if necessary) and see where it leaks out. A crack in the trunk can be opened somewhat by the stress of the keel when heeling, and then close (at least partially) at rest.

Then again, if you had a big rain, it could be water that came in from the top. The windows, anchor locker, cockpit scuppers,... these are some common culprits. But it's hard to imagine that completely filling the bilge that quickly.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 07:30:45

Have you inspected the to-hull or thru-hulls? The sea-cocks may be old and leaking . . .

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/seacock_primer

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 11:43:35

I've also got an '84 tall rig swing keel. If he has the traditional interior, the wood box over the keel trunk is easy to remove in order to inspect the keel trunk. Also, remove the inspection boards in the floor and remove as much water from the bilge as possible. A wet/dry shop vac works great here to get what a pump and sponges miss. Also check the access door under the v-berth. Water can collect there. If his boat has window leaks, keeping a tarp over the cabin top does a lot toward minimizing that. I use a modified powerboat cover that is large enough to completely cover the windows, or I can put it over the boom and attach the sides to the lifelines for a boom tent. Check the deadlight (skylight) over the v-berth for leaks.
Use a phillips head screwdriver to make sure the anchor locker drain is not clogged up.
Paper towels are great for spotting sources of leaks quickly. After the water has been removed, dry off the area around the keel cable volcano and place paper towels around the volcano and below the rubber hose. If it stays dry, your problem is elsewhere. BTW, he should find out if the prior owner ever changed the hose or roller ball in the volcano tube. DO NOT mess with the volcano rubber hose while the boat is in the water, except to carefully tighten the hose clamps if loose.
Do the same paper towel thing with the keel trunk.
Are there any streaks below the windows? Chalk lines drawn below suspected trouble spots will help confirm leaks, too.
Also, there are openings around the companionway hatch boards that will allow rain entry if the hatch is left uncovered (use tarp).
Was the entire cabin floor covered with water?

Also, I've got a fin keel trailer available to rent if he needs to do any keel cable or trunk work.

Edited by - dmpilc on 07/06/2011 11:52:07

Southerncharmer
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 13:24:47

Thanks for info so far.

I had time to 1) search for the leak location and 2) dive under the boat to inspect.

I found...

1) The cabin inspection showed that the leak is forward of the bulkhead that is adjacent to the compression post. The water builds up under the sole at the foot of the porta-potty and flows aft through an opening in said bulkhead and then builds up in the locker space under the forward table seat.

2) Diving the hull showed that the only thru-hull opening is for the galley sink/ice box drain well aft of the leak location. There are no thru-hulls anywhere near the leak location. Inspection of the forward swing keel area showed that one of the four keel bolts is missing and no apparent damage from any possible past swing keel free fall events.

Can a missing keel bolt in itself be the cause of the leak? Reading the Catalina tech description of the keel bolt assembly, I don't think so...what do you think?

Can I replace the missing keel bolt in shallow water without having to pull the boat out on a trailer? Regardless of the impact on the leak, I need all four bolts...

Thanks

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 18:35:21

The keel bolt, as you determined, doesn't penetrate the hull.The keel bolt can be replace as you described if the old one isn't sheared off with part still inside, and you need all 4 of them. Rain can leak down from the mast step if the bolts aren't well bedded and drip into that area. Chainplates and port light are still possibilities unless you have done the previously mentioned chalk line. A clogged anchor locker drain and your water tank and fittings are also sources; if you haven't already, fill the anchor locker with water to be sure the drain is patent. Do you have a head sink and have you thoroughly dried, examined, and chalked under the V-berth?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 19:00:26

Other thoughts: That is a lot of water to come in from above. Dry the bilge and see if it stays dry, then go sailing and check the bilge on both tacks, especially around the keel pivot to see if only having 3 bolts might allow movement of the bolt receiver and damage to the hull as you heel. Use a dry paper towel around the keel housing to see if it picks up any water. Also check around the volcano and the bilge pickup - a deteriorated diaphragm might let water siphon back through the pump.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 19:45:34

I have an 82 SK and I was alway getting a little water in the bilge. I changed the thru hulls and resealed the transducers, etc. This last winter I scrapped and sanded the whole hull bottom and there was a small crack just ahead of the keel opening. I couldn't see it before I did the clean up. I proceeded to grind and fill using fiberglass cloth and epoxy. I took the boat to Flotida right after that and in six weeks there wasn't a drop of water in the bilge.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 19:47:17

I'm sorry Flotida is another state. I actually went to Florida.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2011 : 19:54:02

You know you can edit your posts after you post them? Just click the icon that looks like a pad of paper and a pencil...hover over it and what it does will pop up....

Edited by - Joe Diver on 07/06/2011 19:54:47

Southerncharmer
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2011 : 12:25:57

Here's the #2 update - and THANKS for all the good advice, thoughts, etc so far -

We took the boat out and in very light breeze had just a 'nomial' leak...

Wind picked up to 7 to 9 kts and on a close to beam reach with the keel wire humming (good boat speed and maybe 8 to 10 degrees heel) we found that on a starboard tack, the volume of the leak increased by about triple - on a port tack (same conditions) the leak backed off to the 'nominal' leak ....

Big leak starboard tack - much less leak on port tack !!!!!!????

FWIW - no anywhere else on the boat so far - no rain, none from portlights, hatches, thru-hulls, volcano, etc

This leak that we are dealing with seems to come from under the sole in an area forward of the bulkhead that divides the cabin from the head (ie, forward of the compression post). Not sure how far forward, but after the water enters under the sole and builds up, it runs aft out of a channel hole in said bulkhead at base of compression post.

Diving under the boat at anchor revealed no visual evidence of 'keel drop' damage - maybe there, but couldn't see it.....

Sooooo, what do we do next....

Thanks

Edited by - on

keeldad
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2011 : 12:48:49

Just a thought. I have an 84 SK and the impeller for the speed log is on the stbd side. I think there is a cap on the unit where it penetrates the hull. Is it loose? I ask this because if you are on a port tack, your stbd side would be further down and perhaps there is more water pressure on that tack vs. a stbd tack.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2011 : 12:55:08

Do you have a marine head or porta-potty? If a marine head you must have a thru hull somewhere in the bow. It may be open and leaking or it's closed and the seal is leaking. Mine is under the v-birth just inside the access door. Or.....if the water is grey or waste water, maybe the hose fittings for your waste water tank, if equipped, are leaking.

Do you have water in your fresh water tank? if so, perhaps the hose fittings are leaking.

Edited by - on

keeldad
1st Mate

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84 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2011 : 12:55:18

Ignore the previous. I misread your post and thought you said that you got more water on the PORT tack.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2011 : 19:57:39

You really need to pull the boat and check the bottom, It really sounds like something amiss around the keel housing.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2011 : 04:52:39

I agree with Dave. Sounds like you've been sailing in benign conditions. If you go out/get caught out when it's blowing things could go down hill quickly if there is a problem in the keel area.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2011 : 07:34:05

I agree too....you need to pull it for a close inspection. Sounds like a crack, oriented just so that it opens on a specific tack under specific conditions. You're not going to find it diving under the boat....if you could, it would be a much more serious leak than it is now.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2011 : 08:14:59

Another vote for a crack, which could be up inside the forward edge of the trunk, although usually it will extend slightly forward on the bottom, but it could be very small. I presume (?) when you dove, the boat was not heeling to port, so the 1500# of cast iron wasn't stressing the hull around the pivot area. So any crack could have been closed to the naked eye in poor light.

And there is no "nominal leak"--except from rainwater.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/09/2011 08:18:01

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2011 : 09:29:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter

And there is no "nominal leak"--except from rainwater.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree...my bilge is bone dry, except after heavy rain from just the right direction. I don't get enough in it for the pump, so I use a sponge and bucket to get all the water out and a towel to dry/clean it.

Edited by - on

tedsbeds
Deckhand

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3 Posts

Response Posted - 07/12/2011 : 11:05:44

I would check the drain for the anchor locker. That passes through the hull forward of the V berth and in vigorous sailing water could splash up into that hole or onto the foredeck. Also if there were a crack in the anchor locker floor itself that would allow water to enter the cabin forward of the head.

Edited by - on

Southerncharmer
Deckhand

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USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2011 : 13:37:04

UPDATE!!

We pulled the boat. Let dry, and the leak revealed. Apparent keel drop I believe. appears to had some large amount of pressure crack forward of keel trunk and slightly in trunk. We caulked cracks and layering fiberglass over. The other issue we'd been dicussing was lost keel bolt. The missing bolt actually broke off. therefore, stud remains in threading of keel bracket. the actual bracket is loose and other bolt on the same starboard side was only finger tight. the bracket seems not to be flush. like the other one. As I'm reading online, catalina direct recommends servicing all of these bolts regardless of incident every 1-2 years.
I'm not completely sure if these issues are related.
Any recommendations? or has anyone out there delt with this combination of problems?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/19/2011 : 16:03:50

I check the bolts for corrosion, but I don't replace them routinely. Removing the old broken bolt will be challenging but essential. Drilling the stainless bolt for a large easy-out is not an easy task and replacing the fitting is not for the inexperienced and therefor not an inexpensive option. I'm not sure caulking and overlaying glass is such a good idea either. Dropping the pivot assembly is your next step. You must have a secure, 4 bolt pivot assembly.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2011 : 10:08:19

I will secong that. The 4-bolt pivot assembly must be secure. Those 4 bolts and pivot assembly are the only thing holding up 1,500 lbs of cast iron, so a failure there could well be catastrophic. Do not relaunch until it has been fixed.

Edited by - on

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