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Introduction and question

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aaron
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/26/2011 : 20:15:07

Hey everyone, been lurking on this forum for a couple of years now. Learned a lot. During that time I've been pretty patiently reading and learning about the Catalinas and looking for a good boat. I've been all through Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual (okay, not all the way through, but been through the book on inspecting several times), and have used the Catalina checklist that someone put together here or on the other forum. Been trying to do my homework! I've looked at a lot of boats. I think I've found one that may be a good fit, and have gone through it pretty thoroughly (other than pulling it out of the water and doing a hull inspection, which is next).

I'm looking at an 84 Catalina 25 swing keel. I don't know if it's a tall or standard rig. I feel like I've got a good handle on what's up with the boat, except for the keel trunk. I've taken some pictures and tossed them online. Pictures here: https://picasaweb.google.com/117970225101024029087/HighMaintenanceToo?authuser=0& authkey=Gv1sRgCP_q49WthuXSugE& feat=directlink.

I don't know if the buildup on the aft of the trunk is factory or if it's repair work. Maybe someone here can tell. Foolishly, I didn't get good pictures of the aft-edge of the trunk where it joins the cabin floor. There is a little cracking down there. Seemed minor, but wasn't sure if it was a tell-tale from past damage.
I've made an offer on the boat contingent on the hull inspection, so ideally I'll end up being able to actively participate on here.

I'm in Redding, CA (far-northern CA), and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of marine surveyors here, so I'm a bit on my own. I did call the closest one I could find, but he's about 5 hours away. Had a good talk with him, though. I've had another Catalina owner check things out with me and we went on the test sail. On the whole, things seem to check out, so here's to keeping fingers crossed.

Thanks to everyone on here for the great resource!

Summers Off, #5871, 1989 TR/WK, Redding CA

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2011 : 20:58:12

If the boat is in the water, see if you can get a pump and get the water out of the bilge. Then see if more comes in. That bilge should be dry! Apply paper towels to the crack in the keel trunk and to the base of the keel trunk where it joins the hull. If it is wet, that crack is part of a leak problem.

Edited by - on

aaron
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 07/26/2011 : 21:26:53

Yeah, for sure. That's part of my plan for determining the leak location, since it won't rain here until about November. I had to tell the current owner about the water multiple times before he would believe me. I would have pumped it out myself if I could have found the bilge pump handle (he's got a lot of crap on there). Apparently he finally went out and pumped it out this weekend. So now we wait and see what comes back. I'm suspicious about the chain plate leaking. I have a feeling he hasn't checked it in the five years he's owned it.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 07:14:49

Welcome Aaron

We discovered water in the bilge was coming from the anchor locker - when it became plugged and overflowed . . .

We found most of our leaks by using a dramm watering wand - 1 person would apply water to various parts of the deck and cabin top while a second person was observing below. Identified 98% of the leaks in about 2 hours. Water has been known to come in behind the rubrail also.

Good luck with your purchase!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 07:57:43

Welcome!

With water like that in the bilge and "since it won't rain here until about November",(and, I assume it hasn't in a while) I'd be concerned that water isn't from rain. Try OJ's idea of having somebody use a hose from above to see if the bilge fills. You might also be able to find the source of any leak as he described. If, after that, the bilge is dry, it's not rainwater and I wouldn't buy that boat until I was sure the leak was minor and easily repairable. There are too many other boats available

I excluded swing keels from my boat search for just this kind of thing. A lot of them exist and serve their owners well but, I didn't want to be worried about the keel dropping or the hose surrounding the winch cable leaking or __________(fill in the blank). Swingers require more maintenance than fixed keels and I didn't want to be spending sailing time working on the keel.

I'd also wonder why the owner didn't know if it was a tall rig or not. I'd wonder what else he doesn't know about. That's pretty easy to figure out. Get a tape measure longer than 30' and measure attach it to the jib halyard. Run it up the mast and read the number at the bottom. That gives you the "I" measurement -- the height from the bottom of the mast to the halyard sheave. On a tall rig, that number is 31', standard is 29'. Tall rigs are generally considered to be "light wind" boats. If the venue you plan to sail it in has even moderate wind (8-10+knots), you'll be sailing with the main reefed a lot. I'd want to know that before I bought the boat.

Here's a good reference: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/Cat25manpre88.pdf

Edited by - John Russell on 07/27/2011 07:59:07

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 08:54:26

THAT'S A LOT OF WATER! The aft end of the trunk looks OK to me if you're referring to the area near the cable tube, but the paper towel test is still a good idea. Leave the access open to be sure the bilge is thoroughly dry or you will get false positives, but the aft end isn't usually a problem. The glass in that area often has gaps that can look look like cracks. The aft side of the forward end looks funky, but but I don't have photos of Pearl to really compare. Sail the boat again with a dry bilge and try to get significant heel on opposite tacks to see if there are cracks around the pivot assembly that open under stress. Do it with the access boards out, the cover off and somebody visually monitoring, especially the base and that vertical crack. Be aware that backing under power will with to much power will pump water up the cable tube that will drain back to the bilge. Definitely spray the deck and rubrail areas with a hose while monitoring for water ingress. Leaks around portlights and fittings are relatively easy and inexpensive repairs that might require price adjustments but are not red flags. The chainplate corrosion is an indicator, but I wouldn't be to concerned if the wood bulkhead is intact. Tall rigs are OK, but standard rigs are more convenient with their higher booms. Pour some water into the bilge when the boat is out of the water and dry to se if it leaks out.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 07/27/2011 09:02:53

aaron
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 10:35:00

Good feedback. Thanks guys! Yeah, the bilge water is what I'm using as my chief leverage for the price I offered, and the plan of attack is exactly what I had in mind for dealing with it. Fortunately there are some other great threads on here about troubleshooting leaks. This place really is a great resource. I'm happy that the owner has finally pumped it out. Knowing him (we've met a few times now), I really doubt that it's gotten fully dried, but at least it probably closer to empty!

John: thanks for the tip on the SR/TR diagnosis. Simple and great advice. I'll figure that one out soon. And yeah, as far as what he doesn't know, well, I'm assuming that I am having to find everything out myself. He only took it out once last season, and has told me, somewhat proudly, that he hasn't had to do anything to the boat in the five years he's owned it. I'll let you draw your own conclusion on that.

I'm glad to hear the keel trunk looks normal, that was my primary concern... the build-up of resin (?) and the crack in it (visible in one of the keel trunk pictures) on the aft end was not something that I knew was factory or a repair job.

If I end up with the boat, I'll have to tell you the story of the test sail... it's a good one!

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 11:40:01

The weak tea look of the water in the bilge to me indicates rainwater that has come from the deck.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 11:43:28

Sometimes a neglected boat is better than one where the PO performed amateurish maintenance and only made things worse . . .

It's also interesting how a boat can remain dry for weeks-on-end and then suddenly there's a puddle on the cabin sole . . . usually a result of wet weather coming from a different direction than normal.

Not sure water in the bilge is a reasonable arguement for price negotiation. I would guess that the majority of boats of this vintage have at least some water in the bilge - more often than not.

Edited by - on

aaron
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 11:50:56

Thanks Don, that's some great insight that's hard to find in the books. OJ, I agree completely on the maintenance. Knowing the owner, I would prefer that he didn't undertake the repairs for that reason. As far as the water, while I would agree in principle, it's the ownwer's lack of knowing *why* there is water than is my issue. That implies that I would be taking on the risk of the actual cause, and that risk (in my mind) is a negotiable item. And then there's the motor, the chainplate, the battery, the broken strand on a stay, the leaky portlight, and so on... (I've got a solid list that I've presented, so I'm trying to be very fair in my offer based on estimated repair costs).

You guys are great. Could have never gotten this far without all the history in this forum. I'm hoping to find out about my offer soon. I'm pretty excited.

And, as sort of a followup (hijacking my own thread!), is Don Casey's This Old Boat as nice a book as Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual (or any of the sub-books)? I'm very impressed by it.

Edited by - aaron on 07/27/2011 11:54:27

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 12:25:31

Be sure and pull the other removable floor board, both have to be drained separately due to the stringers.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 13:02:09

Welcome Aaron,

Having had a swinger for the past 6 years, I need to share that I've come to think they may not be worth their extra attention. Undeniably, location is key and if thin water is an issue, then they have real value. For us, the boat was in great shape - which is important - and a swing keel didn't seem an issue at the time we bought her. In fact as newbies I believed it an asset. All things being equal, I'd take a wing keel first next time...

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 13:14:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 All things being equal, I'd take a wing keel first next time...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I tend to agree, but a winger wasn't in my budget. They easily cost $5k+ more than I paid for my boat, plus the costs of shipping it to me from wherever it was. (not here, that's for sure)

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 13:40:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 . . . All things being equal, I'd take a wing keel first next time . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Had a swing, now own a wing. A swing has a narrow performance advantage. If you enjoy boat maintenance (as I do) a swing is not a lot of work. I spent way more time on leaky windows, plumbing, miscellaneous upgrades, hull blisters than I ever did on swing keel maintenance. If you coat the cast iron keel with the right products you can minimize the rust too.

Edited by - OJ on 07/27/2011 16:26:42

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 13:47:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aaron
 thanks for the tip on the SR/TR diagnosis . . . If I end up with the boat, I'll have to tell you the story of the test sail...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You could also check for the letter "T" in the stenciling on the sail bags.

If you get the boat Aaron - we all love boat pix on this forum!

Edited by - on

aaron
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 15:11:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
You could also check for the letter "T" in the stenciling on the sail bags.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is this all bags, or just some? That's a darn easy way to do it! And I assume the T stands for Tall?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 16:25:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aaron
 
Is this all bags, or just some? That's a darn easy way to do it! And I assume the T stands for Tall?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There was a "T" on all three of our sail bags - which I'm pretty certain were original.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 16:47:36

Welcome Aaron! Of equal importance is the outside of the hull just forward of the keel trunk and the forward part inside the trunk. In a free-fall, the front of the keel hits that area, and the backside of the top of the keel could hit that area where you see the crack(s) in your photos. (I don't like them.) As has been discussed here, damage in that area is structural--that area takes a lot of stress from that 1500# 5' iron lever.

The chainplates are easy to re-bed. On the deck, there's a little frame that's screwed down. Unscrew and slide it up to re-seal.

Edited by - on

aaron
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 17:12:23

Thanks Dave. The outside of the keel trunk area and keel bolts are focus factors for me, once we get to the point of hauling the boat out of the water. You guys are all really great!

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2011 : 21:32:27

Aaron;

I'd take a very close look at the bulkheads around the chainplates. The indications of leaks, particularly the discolored wood near the bottom of the starboard one, suggest the possibility of damage to the wood. Tap all around the edges of the chainplates with a small-diameter rod (even the tip of a large, worn phillips-head screwdriver, carefully) and listen for "softer" sounds than the sharp impact of solid wood. Plywood can be damaged beneath the outer veneers and not show much evidence at the surface. Those four bolts, bearing against their holes through that wood, are all that transfer the tension of the shrouds to the structure of the boat itself, and that force spikes when a gust of wind hits just as the hull is rolling to windward. Catalina 27's are especially prone to problems here, but our 25's are vulnerable as well.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2011 : 10:09:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aaron
 And, as sort of a followup (hijacking my own thread!), is Don Casey's This Old Boat as nice a book as Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual (or any of the sub-books)? I'm very impressed by it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, it is a very good book. For your purposes, the first edition is just as good as the newer second edition, and probably less expensive if you can find it.

Edited by - on

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