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Automated radio checks

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redviking
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 15:46:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 ahem....getting back to topic...the SeaTow auto response I get wen checking from Peconic Bay identifies itself as their facility on the CT River...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is cool. Most responses I have had are non-descript....

Sten

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 16:40:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Uh yeah, we were able to influence the Americas and a couple of Asian occupied territories to become IOLA B countries, while the rest of the world is IOLA A.... Wonder which came first. A or B?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And the English and French imposed their will on Europe and their former empires when it all got settled out in 1863.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 08/09/2011 16:41:08

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 17:43:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Uh yeah, we were able to influence the Americas and a couple of Asian occupied territories to become IOLA B countries, while the rest of the world is IOLA A.... Wonder which came first. A or B?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And the English and French imposed their will on Europe and their former empires when it all got settled out in 1863.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly..... Can't rewrite history. And we were how old in the scheme of things? Gotta go... See ya all.

Edited by - redviking on 08/09/2011 17:45:53

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 19:01:24

From the USCG Ninth District...

Coast Guard reminds boaters: No radio checks on 16

GREAT LAKES-- The Coast Guard would like to remind boaters that doing radio checks on VHF marine radio channel 16 puts lives on the line.

Recreational boaters calling for a radio check on channel 16 creates clutter on an already busy frequency. This extra radio clutter can drown out calls for help.

Recreational boaters wanting to check their radios are asked to do so on a nonworking channel such as channel 9.

VHF marine radio channel 9 has been the hailing frequency on the Great Lakes since 2000. While the use of this channel is not mandatory, it is strongly suggested.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 19:53:17

Two minor points made above:
1. On modern radios, if you can be heard on one frequency, then all frequencies will work equally well.
This is not necessarily true. Because we use actual coaxial cables with bends and corrosion, and actual antennas with certain design compromises, it is a very distinct possibility that if your signal is good on Ch09 or Ch68, it may not be as good or strong on Ch16. Engineers measure frequency sweeps of cables and antennas, and it is not uncommon to find +/- 6 dB gain/dip variations. This can result in strong signals on one channel and weak signals on another.

Bottom line, it's probably a good idea to do a radio check on several channels like 09, 13, 16 (if you dare), 24 or 27, 68 and 72.

Going to Sten's example, I'd hate to find out that my radio worked great on channel 09, only to find during an offshore passage that Ch 16 didn't work for crap.

2. How is it that Sea Tow was able to take over an entire channel for a continuous commercial?
Turns out that channels 24-28 were set aside for ship-to-shore radio, connecting boaters to the public telephone network.
Used to be, you could call a telephone number by going through a live operator to connect your VHF radio to the selected phone number. You used to have to either have an account, or use your phone card to pay for it. So, since most people now have cell phones aboard, there is very little voice traffic on these channels.
This isn't a bad use for the channels.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 21:52:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 How tall is your mast... ? Mine is 58.5 feet tall and I guarantee you I can transmit a lot farther...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, mine's bigger than yours (although I won't say what "it" is...

)

In the context of this sailing community, this conversation has value, but some of it might be a little like discussing "escape velocity" on a car site. The USCG has responded to my handheld VHF from what seemed like an amazing distance, but which others might call "near shore". My fixed radio and 6dB antenna will do much better--if the connection is good. What I found is that when the connection was compromised (by corrosion or whatever), my reception was decent by my transmission was compromised. I suspect that was true across all channels.

But Sten, I haven't keyed the mic on 16 in over 10 years (when I once tried to get TowBoatUS and ended up with the USCG, who couldn't get TBUS to help us because the weather was too bad...) I'll continue to avoid keying 16, and will be talking on 9 (hailing), 13 (local bridges), 7 (Mystic Seaport commercial), 68 (pumpout boat), and "chat" channels as needed. Now I'll do occasional checks on 27 to hear how I sound.

Sarge out and standing by on 9,13, and 16.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/09/2011 21:55:09

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 08/09/2011 : 22:04:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
... Again, 16 is a "Hailing AND Distress" channel, which means if I want to hail any vessel for a radio check I can still legally do so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I understand your point but I have a different understanding of what "hailing" means. To me, the intent of hailing on VHF 16 is to request a specific station (by station I mean person, vessel, agency, etc). Once initial contact is made the two stations switch to an agreed upon channel for the conversation (for example, a radio check). Sure you can hail "all stations" but generally this is used only for securite transmissions (to identify a channel to switch to hear the full message), pan-pan, or mayday.

In my opinion (and possibly law but I'm way to lazy to dig through the CFRs right now) it is kind of poor seamanship to use VHF 16 for radio checks simply because there are other options and radio checks on CHF 16 can possibly step on an emergency transmission. Furthermore, if the USCG requests us to not use VHF 16 for radio checks then that's all I need to hear.

Another way to conduct radio checks that hasn't yet been mentioned is to use AIS to obtain the MMSI of a vessel in an area you're interested in seeing if your range can reach. Then you can call them direct via DSC (see http://www.boatus.com/husick/c_dsc.asp for more info). If you don't have an AIS receiver you can still track AIS contacts and get MMSI numbers online via sites like http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/ and/or via smart phone with apps such as "Ship Finder" (http://my.pinkfroot.com/page/ship-finder-iphone

The benefit of using AIS for your radio checks is that you are hailing a specific vessel at a known distance, you do not have to use VHF 16 or VHF 09, and may enable you to verify your DSC at the same time (many radios have automated test features that will contact a nearby station operating a VHF with DSC and sort of ping it to verify your data is being received). DSC transmissions are automatic and extremely brief on VHF 70 while the radio still monitors VHF 16 etc.

A "poor mans" (or more like "lazy mans") way to radio check on a different channel than VHF 16 is to scan common channels, listen to a hail, then hail that same vessel once they are done talking. I consider this somewhat poor form but I think it's still better than transmitting unnecessarily on VHF 16.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 07:12:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Two minor points made above:
1. On modern radios, if you can be heard on one frequency, then all frequencies will work equally well.
This is not necessarily true. Because we use actual coaxial cables with bends and corrosion, and actual antennas with certain design compromises, it is a very distinct possibility that if your signal is good on Ch09 or Ch68, it may not be as good or strong on Ch16. Engineers measure frequency sweeps of cables and antennas, and it is not uncommon to find +/- 6 dB gain/dip variations. This can result in strong signals on one channel and weak signals on another.

Bottom line, it's probably a good idea to do a radio check on several channels like 09, 13, 16 (if you dare), 24 or 27, 68 and 72. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought so. Thanks for the clarification Bruce.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 07:46:16

I have sent an email to my friend who is Senior Chief Operations Specialist with the local CG Sector Command Center asking for clarification. It seems each sector is different. I agree that NOT checking 16 sounds foolish given the aforementioned differences between frequencies and the "bandwidth" of VHF radios.

That been said - uh, I found this

Radio Checks
Radio checks with the Coast Guard Communications Stations on DSC and HF radiotelephone are allowed.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtBoater

I also found this: "“Excessive radio traffic on Channel 16 (156.8) continues to be a challenge for Coast Guard Rescue Coordination Centers,” said Capt. David A. McBride, U.S. Coast Guard Chief of the Office of Search and Rescue. “Although not explicitly prohibited, routine radio checks conducted on Channel 16 can interfere with vital distress and safety communications."

seems like the left hand hasn't figured out what the right hand is doing yet....

sten

Edited by - redviking on 08/10/2011 08:09:27

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 07:54:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
2. How is it that Sea Tow was able to take over an entire channel for a continuous commercial?
Turns out that channels 24-28 were set aside for ship-to-shore radio, connecting boaters to the public telephone network.
Used to be, you could call a telephone number by going through a live operator to connect your VHF radio to the selected phone number. You used to have to either have an account, or use your phone card to pay for it. So, since most people now have cell phones aboard, there is very little voice traffic on these channels.
This isn't a bad use for the channels.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, I wanna know that one too... And why different channels for different areas? You still have to hit 16 to find out which channel in your area to go to for the automated check... Seems redundant. I think Coasties should monitor 9 and give radio checks there if they really want us to do that and eliminate the private setor vendor - which I find as reliable as day old sushi given my experiences with SeaTow.

Oh yeah, and SeaTow will probably try to sue me again for complaining here about their crappy service, but they can go and %^$# themselves...

sten

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 08:38:05

With all due respect to those who trashed my last post, please note that I did NOT write it, I clearly stated that I copied it from elsewhere. I think spelling is important, too, for searching on websites, for instance!

Yes, it seems that different CG areas have different responses to using Ch 16 for radio checks. So, if your CG area "allows" it by all means use it.

But in my area, they frown upon it and do what was originally posted: "Please don't use Ch 16," says OUR CG station. What's so hard about that?

If the CG says don't in YOUR area, just please don't.

If you're offshore and you want to check in with the CG to assure yourself that you can be heard just in case, then go ahead. In my neck of the woods, my little handheld VHF can be heard by the CG many, many miles offshore, 'cuz their station is VERY high off the ground, and powerful. My mast head antenna is not connected to my HH in the cockpit, but I could use my radio down below if need be.

I'm not put out about someone's mast being taller than mine, but ours is only 55 feet, so, OK, you win...

And I think my post pretty well summed it up, 'cuz that's the experience I have WHERE I BOAT. Most jerks don't know one end of their radio from the other, and are like lemmings when it comes to using them (present company excluded, I assure you

).

There seems to be little reason for the argumentative SA approach to any of this. As noted, if your local CG says stay off 16 for radio checks, why argue with that?

I use Ch 9 for the many bridges I go through here, except for one bridge that for some unknown reason still uses Ch 13. Ch 9 is my "radio check" so when the bridges respond to my hail, I know my radio works!

I think more people need to be taught how to use their radios properly, based on where they boat, to say nothing about the correct procedure once they key their mikes, regardless of what channel they use.

For instance, now that most of us have scanning radios, and have learned how to use them, it would be great for folks hailing to say what channel they are on. Just sayin'...

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 08/10/2011 08:41:14

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 09:17:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 
Radio Checks
Radio checks with the Coast Guard Communications Stations on DSC and HF radiotelephone are allowed.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtBoater

I also found this: "“Excessive radio traffic on Channel 16 (156.8) continues to be a challenge for Coast Guard Rescue Coordination Centers,” said Capt. David A. McBride, U.S. Coast Guard Chief of the Office of Search and Rescue. “Although not explicitly prohibited, routine radio checks conducted on Channel 16 can interfere with vital distress and safety communications."

seems like the left hand hasn't figured out what the right hand is doing yet....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless I'm missing something those two statements are not contradictory. A DSC or HF radio check (permitted with USCG) do not use VHF 16. For info on how to conduct a DSC radio check see my previous post. Is it "legal" to do a radio check on VHF 16, probably. Is it a good idea? Not according to USCG in most areas, especially areas with high traffic.

The very real risk of accidently blocking a mayday far trumps the "need" to test VHF 16. Clogging up VHF 16 can easily block a weak signal that you can not hear but that USCG is monitoring, for example from a low watt handheld VHF offshore.

As for needing to test specific channels, if coax is in such bad condition that some channels are non-functional (or sub optimal) the remaining channels will also be affected. In other words, it's not like 80% of the channels will have optimal reception/transmission while 20% do not work. The difference is relatively minor. Sure you can argue that the possible minor extension distance of offshore reception may the difference between life or death but if you're that worried about it you should probably get an SSB or sat comm. Besides, environmental factors can play a role, other traffic (including people clogging VHF 16), etc. Bottom line, if your radio transmits effectively on VHF 09 (or other channels) you can reliably expect it to function fine on VHF 16.

For what it's worth, in my area the USCG is reported to have the capability of hearing a low power (handheld) VHF signal approximately 20 miles offshore...

...unless some bozo is trying a radio check on VHF 16. ;)

Edited by - Ryan L on 08/10/2011 09:19:30

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 09:22:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
I think more people need to be taught how to use their radios properly, based on where they boat, to say nothing about the correct procedure once they key their mikes, regardless of what channel they use.

For instance, now that most of us have scanning radios, and have learned how to use them, it would be great for folks hailing to say what channel they are on. Just sayin'...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree. And while they're learning how to use their radios maybe they can get a quick lesson in "rules of road" and basic boat handling...

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 09:47:51

Agreed on all points - and uh, 55 feet is pretty tall Stu! I know you didn't write that, just pointing out that information from a variety of sources comes with its own baggage, i.e. I'm not trusting someone who thinks I am an amachure for occasionally verifying 16 works. Again, it seems as if it is all very vague as to the exact rules. One commander says it's OK - so it is, one says it isn't - OK, I respect that. Tell me so and I will know that my radio works and I won't do it again until my next offshore passage.

Once again, common sense rules - for those who don't understand that part, rules will be enforced. But for now, I do not want the Coasties to turn off my ability to make sure 16 works in case of an emergency and lord knows we have responded to plenty of them. I do not want to block distress calls, but I will also say that for the most part, the chatter on 16 is people who do not know how to switch to a working channel and use 16 until the Coasties tell them to switch to a working channel. Those are BOZO's... Cruisers who rely on their radios are not in that category - and that is not an adversarial viewpoint like those found on SA, just the plain facts as far as I am concerned.

I'll report what my Coastie friend writes back, he is out today, but I suspect that until they figure out how to ticket you for using 16 for a radio check and actually make the rules universal, this will always be a grey area. Note: On my most recent trip up the East Coast, the Coasties gave me a radio check sans scolding - so you tell me, how am I supposed to know what I can do where? If you only sail in one waterway - fine, do as they wish.

But as a former C25 owner, I will tell you that as far as I am concerned the vessel has its limitations and verifying that the radio will work when needed should be given a priority.

sten

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 10:40:52

Some of the boaters around the Chesapeake Bay abuse ch. 16, but everyone else goes to 67, 68, or 69 to chat.

But on July 4th, during a CG search and rescue operation in the Magothy River with 6 boats with flashing lights and a helicopter, the chatter was non-existent. According to the newspaper story the next day, two guys were spinning tight circles in a 16 foot skiff with an outboard, both fell overboard, and one was not found.

The fireworks displays were wonderful as always, from about 20 locations around the river, over the hills, and across the bay, but not for one boater. Hundreds, or thousands, of boats were out on the water.

And the silence on 16, except for CG notices, was deafening.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 11:54:50

I've laid in the stern bunk on a dark and stormy Christmas night listening to the CG hailing a lost/distressed vessel with no other radio traffic. Pretty creepy.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 19:07:36

FWIW I tried the auto radio check on VHF 27 today for the first time. It worked great. The recording identified where it was transmitting from and the rest was as described in earlier posts to this thread. The "ad" was mostly just a PSA encouraging the wearing of PFDs.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 19:33:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 FWIW I tried the auto radio check on VHF 27 today for the first time. It worked great. The recording identified where it was transmitting from and the rest was as described in earlier posts to this thread. The "ad" was mostly just a PSA encouraging the wearing of PFDs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What was in the rest of the ad?

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 08/10/2011 : 22:00:14

I don't remember. I may have switched back before it finished. Doesn't matter anyway (IMO). I think it's a great service to have available.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 FWIW I tried the auto radio check on VHF 27 today for the first time. It worked great. The recording identified where it was transmitting from and the rest was as described in earlier posts to this thread. The "ad" was mostly just a PSA encouraging the wearing of PFDs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What was in the rest of the ad?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 08/14/2011 : 18:04:32

One day, I was sailing on LI Sound and heard what I thought was a mayday call. It only came through one time, and it was very weak and garbled.

I was not the only one who heard it, as from that point on, every 10 minutes or so Coast Guard Sector Long Island Sound called out to who ever it was saying, "will the vessel who sent the may-day please provide the name of your vessel, the nature of your distress and your GPS position."

There was no response so after a while, the CG stopped sending the message.

If it were me, and I only had enough power to make one or two mayday calls, I'd be terribly upset to learn that some horse's butt talked over my second call doing a friggin' radio check. That's my point.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/14/2011 : 19:49:43

...and they probably triangulated on it and sent at least a vessel to the apparent location. But your point is well taken. There should be a channel dedicated to distress calls, but 16 has been so much of a general purpose channel for so long, I have no clue how to change it. DSC, when adopted by everyone, will fix that.

Edited by - on

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