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Securing the pop-top

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/31/2011 : 13:02:00

If anyone is interested I went ahead and through bolted the pop top to the cabin top to make it extra secure for passages a bit further offshore. It worked extremely well. I used two lag bolts and two eye bolts, stainless, around 5/16 if I remember correctly. I "bedded" the heads with rubber gaskets fabricated from bike tire inner tubes (just cut a small hole, slip in the bolt, then trim around the perimeter). The holes in the cabin top are perfectly aligned with the top of the ridge holding the gasket and are well protected from water by the pop-top overhang. I used washer, split washer, regular nut, and cap nut on the inside. Aesthetically from inside it looks like just another through bolt (like on the clutches, cabin top winches, etc). On the deck the eye bolts are most noticeable but could easily be replaced with regular lag bolts if preferred. I used eye bolts to see if it would be practical to help secure the companionway slide with webbing (right now it is only held in place with thin wood rails held by tapping screws and 4200, a giant hole that's hardly secure...) There has been zero leaking despite three extensive washdowns and about 24 hours of ocean sailing in a variety of conditions. Removing the bolts to make use of the pop-top takes longer than just unscrewing the stock dogs but it is not a big deal.

Before everyone jumps all over me about why anyone would need this level of security let me be clear- everyone doesn't. We do most of our sailing in the Pacific Ocean off of Southern California and Mexico up to about 20 miles offshore. I've been sailing in these waters for most of my life, have done numerous crossings to the Channel Islands in a variety of craft including sailboats and even PWCs (multiple times), and I have been out in just about every type of weather we have down here. I have also been knocked down in enough boats, including our little C25, to know that in certain conditions it doesn't take much. When that happens, we choose to have our pop-top secure. 99% of the time it won't make any difference, but it is super easy to add this level of safety so we did.

With that said, I hope this info is helpful to someone!

"Naoma"
1988 Ericson 38-200
San Diego, CA

Formerly of:
"Maria T"
1987 C25 SR WK 5695
San Diego, CA
L DOCK ARMADA

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2011 : 14:52:18

Ryan, I have never thought of this and appreciate your sharing the idea.

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rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2011 : 19:41:07

Swells off the So.Cal. coast are the real deal. Even today with all my mega horsepower skiff experience to Santa Catalina Island and beyond in any conditions (never a trip called off on a planned date), I don't think I'd be entirely comfortable in a dead calm trying to climb 5-7 foot wall of ocean with a 10HP 6000 lbs boat. Be ready for the roll my friend!

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 06:04:12

I have often thought about securing the pop top as you have done since, as you stated, it's opening in a knock-down situation would cause unrecoverable cabin flooding. I try very hard to avoid such situations but then, one never knows. I have actually only raised the pop top twice in 23 years, once on the day I brought the boat home from the dealer, and once at an anchorage. The abilty to raise it is not an issue with me although resale in a couple of years would warrent that it be usable.

The "dumpster" is another area of similar safety concern since if the hatch is not secured it could easily fill with water in a knock-down and cause an unrecoverable capsize. I keep it secured at all times when under sail.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 07:39:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 The "dumpster" is another area of similar safety concern since if the hatch is not secured it could easily fill with water in a knock-down and cause an unrecoverable capsize. I keep it secured at all times when under sail.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Roger that! If she's knocked down to port and the dumpster flops open, it could be over in a hurry. I kept a padlock in the hasp whenever under way.

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 08:21:19

good points on the lazarette as well.....I don't fully understand the top secure though. With the toggle bolts tightened, there is a lip on the catch that keeps that very secure.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 08:43:17

Rather than lock the 2 seat hatches on our C-22 (nothing to steal anyway), I use spring clips, the kind with one on each end, to secure them. So far, we only lake sail the C-25, so I keep the dumpster securely closed with the padlock, but usually in a closed but unlocked state, then lock it when we leave the boat.
If I was worried about a knockdown and flooding, I would also keep the companionway boards in place with a spring clip securing the companionway hatch. That also provides a third point for securing the pop-top.

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Sloop Smitten
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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 10:38:02

Redundancy = Extra Security.
Ryan takes his C25 out in seas and conditions that most C25 owners would not attempt. His respect for the frailty of his boat compared to what the Pacific ocean can bring is well justified. It took me about three minutes to break into my boat when I forgot my keys one time and I do not have a pop-top. Can only imagine what a rogue wave or huge wake from a passing freighter might do to a couple of toggles once it breached the gunwales.

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Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 10:49:42

I dont use poptop either and its just another hole in the cabin for the water.

Ryan, can you please post some photo? What model do you have?
I have '78 with the stick-on gasket so its not really waterproof.

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 11:03:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
[br
The "dumpster" is another area of similar safety concern since if the hatch is not secured it could easily fill with water in a knock-down and cause an unrecoverable capsize. I keep it secured at all times when under sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed. For that I use a hold-down latch and then put a stainless carabiner through the original latch. If I were to do it over again I'd just get a lockable hold-down latch and use the carabiner with that (cleaner installation). The carabiner allows quicker access than a locked padlock and is more secure than leaving an open padlock.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=112706&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10112&subdeptNum=11319&classNum=11383

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=98224&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10102&subdeptNum=10161&classNum=10163

I also use dual barrel bolts to hold the lower slat board in place as well. It's easy to step over and helps reduce the huge gaping hole that is our companionway, especially from water shipped into the cockpit while the boat is upright.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=99447&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10112&subdeptNum=11319&classNum=11383

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 11:10:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 good points on the lazarette as well.....I don't fully understand the top secure though. With the toggle bolts tightened, there is a lip on the catch that keeps that very secure.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The "toggle bolts" are usually secured with thin tapping screws into the vertical edge of the cabin top and with thin machine screws through bolted (often backed only by finish washers) into the pop top. They hold the top down under normal conditions but would almost certainly rip out from the forces we're discussing in this thread. In testing I caused one to fail without much effort from a simple pry (the tapping screws pulled out). I also tried "bedding" the tapping screws with epoxy which seemed more secure but still too easy to defeat. I also considered through bolting the horizontal screws into the flange holding the trim but through bolting with 5/16 vertically was far more substantial, looked cleaner, cost less, and was easier to do.

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Ryan L
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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 11:46:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tomas Kruska
 I dont use poptop either and its just another hole in the cabin for the water.

Ryan, can you please post some photo? What model do you have?
I have '78 with the stick-on gasket so its not really waterproof.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Next time I'm at the boat I'll try to remember to take pics showing the details but here are some where you can see some of the bolts. I kept the pics large because some of the detail is hard to see on smaller size (sorry about the lateral scroll). We have an 87.

You can see the placement of the two bolts on the port side. Look just inboard of the clutches to identify the eyebolt (easier to see) then follow the poptop "edge" forward to see the lag bolt.

Shows the eyebolt. Again, we used eyebolts aft to better secure the companionway "slide" with webbing if needed in heavier weather.

Forgive the shower shot. It has a good view of the eyebolt in the lower right corner of the pic.

You can see the lag bolts penetrating the cockpit if you look at the aft end of the forward hinge bars (whatever they're called) for the pop-top. Our cabin would never be this disorganized while we're underway. Everything would be stowed. Other things that might interest you in this pic include the footman's loops and webbing we use to secure extra water, dive gear, and loose bags centered and low just forward of the keel, the speaker for the v-berth bilge alarm (you can see it facing aft in the "head" under the forward fire extinguisher), and the fender washers we added to reinforce the chainplate bolts when we re-bedded them this year.

Glad to answer any other questions and always open to suggestions on how to improve.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 21:14:10

Very nice boat!

I'm amazed how much difference two model years make in our boats. My '89 is very different in the way the pop-top is mounted and the cockpit coaming is totally different too. I like your coaming better than mine. It gives you a better place to mount things if needed and the shore power connection, while more exposed to the elements, appears to be much easier to attach the cable to. Mine is in the coaming box and is hard to get connected because of the angle of the receptacle

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Lynn
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2011 : 22:17:25

Ryan nice pictures. We are on our 4th C25 (2nd wing keel) and have sailed SF Bay, Catalina Isl., Lake Pleasant, AZ and the Pacific Northwest in winds up to 38 mph and waves where we lost sight of the boat ahead of us. I secure all the hatches even in light winds and insert the boards just before reefing. Always wear a PFD as I am a US Sailing and ASA Keelboat Instructor. Properly balanced (reef when necessary) our C25 boats have handled great, but I will admit I have thought of adding extra security to the pop-top. We currently are trailer sailing out of Nevada City, CA and bought our boat last year from a gentleman who lived in Scottsdale, AZ. We also have a C22 so we were going to sell the boat but today, we may have talked ourselves out of it and into selling the C22 (at least today). I noticed your hull number and ours is one away at #5696 a 1987 wing keel. Your cockpit shower pic. is going to mean one more project for my husband someday if we keep the boat.

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Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2011 : 00:40:08

Ryan, thanks for pics. Nice boat!
I have the shower in the exactly same position as yours

And that accordion doors is in the opposite direction than mine.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2011 : 05:52:35

Gary, we have an 84 boat and the shore power connector is in the same position as Ryan's. Maybe yours was added by a PO.
Nice pics, Ryan.

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cevans2
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2011 : 06:42:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tomas Kruska
 I dont use poptop either and its just another hole in the cabin for the water.

Ryan, can you please post some photo? What model do you have?
I have '78 with the stick-on gasket so its not really waterproof.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Next time I'm at the boat I'll try to remember to take pics showing the details but here are some where you can see some of the bolts. I kept the pics large because some of the detail is hard to see on smaller size (sorry about the lateral scroll). We have an 87.

You can see the placement of the two bolts on the port side. Look just inboard of the clutches to identify the eyebolt (easier to see) then follow the poptop "edge" forward to see the lag bolt.

Shows the eyebolt. Again, we used eyebolts aft to better secure the companionway "slide" with webbing if needed in heavier weather.

Forgive the shower shot. It has a good view of the eyebolt in the lower right corner of the pic.

Glad to answer any other questions and always open to suggestions on how to improve.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey Ryan I am interested in the mount you have on your solar panel. Can you tell me where you got it?

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2011 : 14:28:24

It looks like the same one I have, Its called a "Sunsei Solar Grip". Google it.

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2011 : 16:21:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 It looks like the same one I have, Its called a "Sunsei Solar Grip". Google it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's similar to the Sunsei but I think it was made by a company called Sunforce. I heard, but have not confirmed, that Sunsei is out of business or somehow was absorbed by Sunforce. Regardless, the version we used has a typical rail mount (two halves that clamp together over the rail). We replaced many of the OEM bolts with thicker stainless bolts after drilling larger holes and we reinforced a key area with a hose clamp. Our panel is significantly larger than what that mount was designed to hold so we took a thin piece of plastic lumber (like starboard), cut a bunch of large holes in it (to provide ventilation to cool the panel), then mounted the panel to the plastic and the plastic to the mount. It's a bit hard to tell in the pic but the panel is separated from the plastic mount by nuts acting as spacers.

The pic isn't great but it gives you the general idea. The benefit of this system is you can angle the mount to provide direct orientation to the sun. Our charge controller includes a digital monitor/recorder so we know data like current amps in, amp hours in since reset, min/max voltage, temp, etc. Orientating the panel to the sun brings us a significant increase in amperage.

If you're interested, the panel is the 30amp Ganz. It's pretty much waterproof, has flex, and is housed in plastic. It's worked very well so far. http://www.cbcamerica.com/microsite/index.cfm?id=103682

The mount/panel has worked flawlessly so far for about six months in conditions up to small craft advisory (about 35 knots) in open ocean swell. It has a bit of "give" which I think is beneficial rather than have the panel get repeatedly jarred by the boats motion.

The panel gives us enough power that we no longer use shore power unless we need to plug in an AC power tool. In fact, we no longer have the ability to charge off shore power. We've gone up to about a week in sunny conditions and have not yet dropped below 12.6 or so minimum charge on our house battery. The motor alternator is wired to the starter (separate circuit) so the house charge is from solar, but we have the capability of linking the batteries in an emergency. Off the house battery (Group 24 IIRC) we regularly use the LEDs in cabin and anchor light, run autohelm, VHF/AIS, stereo, GPS, water pump, ipad/phone charger, and occasionally a small fan. Extremely satisfied with the panel and mount so far.

I hope that's helpful.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2011 : 06:55:20

Ryan,
This is the answer I've been looking for on the poptop. I rarely use it, but worry often about it. Next winter project!

Dave,
I've always kept a pin and circle clip in the hasp on the dumpster. There's a nightmare waiting to happen.

All,
Has anyone in this group ever gotten water down below while sailing in foul conditions by it coming over the gunwales, into the cockpit, over the step and through the companionway?
I've been lucky I guess, even in following seas in tidal rips, I've never had water come over the gunwales.

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2011 : 13:58:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Ryan,
All,
Has anyone in this group ever gotten water down below while sailing in foul conditions by it coming over the gunwales, into the cockpit, over the step and through the companionway?
I've been lucky I guess, even in following seas in tidal rips, I've never had water come over the gunwales.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My wife and I took a greenwater wave over the gunwale sailing in a storm this past winter (she got the brunt of it and got kinda soaked despite foul weather gear) but we had the slat boards locked in place so most of the wetness below was likely residual water from rain and ourselves whenever we opened up and went below. Incidentally, on that passage our rudder cracked along the side and we nearly snapped a pintle (severely bent).

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2011 : 11:42:23

Hi Ryan, Nice boat. It's funny you mention the rudder. When I saw your post originally I kind of thought to my self, "that's all well and good but to my mind the rudder and pintlesgudgeons are probably a weaker point than the pop-top." Have you done anything to beef these up?

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2011 : 22:17:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 Hi Ryan, Nice boat. It's funny you mention the rudder. When I saw your post originally I kind of thought to my self, "that's all well and good but to my mind the rudder and pintlesgudgeons are probably a weaker point than the pop-top." Have you done anything to beef these up?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes. A previous owner replaced the top and bottom gudgeons with the more robust version sold by CD. After consulting with an engineer we added a third between the two but closer to the bottom and replaced the pintles with the reinforced version. Before that I injected Gflex (slightly flexible epoxy) under the rudder skin along the edges below the lower pintle. I ground away the skin from about 1/2 way back and a few inches above the lower pintle down to about where the rudder blade "projects" forward (for the balanced version). I replaced the skin with thickened Gflex (and injected Gflex into adjacent areas under skin) and laminated 4 or 5 (I forget how many) staggered layers of glass. This greatly reinforces the highest stress area and the extra pintle adds a degree of redundancy. The rudder "feels" much stiffer and smooth. Zero play. IMO better feel for the water as well (balance, swell, etc). No promises that this is the ideal repair/upgrade but it is certainly stronger than before.

In case of lost rudder function we carry (and know how to use) the usual stuff. Drogue, oars and lashings, etc.

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