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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

swing or keel

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surfjat
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/14/2011 : 17:19:15

hey guys , im new to this forum and need your help..i have the opportunity of buyin either a swing keel 25 or a fin keel and need to know whant are the advantages and disadvantages of both..i live in rhode island.and dont race. ive owned two cat 27's years ago..and now want a k. i. s. s. boat...im wonderig which is more stable at anchor or on a mooring..or are they the same..i guess the fin has more ballast but the swing is deeper..im not into physics so i dont know..lololo...what do you think would b my best bet.both are 1982's...thanks for your help..jerry t.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2011 : 17:35:16

If you don't need to trailer, I'd opt for the fin.

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2011 : 18:46:12

If you have good water depth where you sail and you don't trailer launch too often and you don't want to have to pull the boat every year or two to check/repair swing keel components, and you don't want to crank the keel up and down every time you sail, and you don't want to hear the keel clunking when the pivot pin wears then go with the fin keel. It will also point higher (but not much, maybe?) than a swing keel.

As Don points out above, if you're going to trailer and trailer launch on a somewhat frequent basis then the swing keel is the way to go. From what I've read on this site the fin keel is much harder to launch and retrieve using a ramp. If you're going to trailer and lift on and off the trailer then it probably wouldn't matter if you had the fin keel.

Just my opinion so take it for what it's worth. It's just an opinion.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2011 : 19:35:48

The fin is K.I.S.S.; the swinger has advantages for some, but it definitely requires modest maintenance.. It isn't as bad as GaryB makes it sound, but a swing loses out if you neither trailer nor have skinny water and shallow gunkholes. I don"t think there are measurable performances differences. The swing concentrates the ballast at the bottom of a deeper keel while most of the fin's mass is at the top, so the fin should heel more. The narrow swing keel probably has a better lift/drag ratio. but the fin has more lift overall to go with its greater drag. The lower drag of the swing is offset by the big slot disturbing the hydrodynamics, so there probably isn't a significant speed difference. Since one would be hard pressed to quantify a performance difference, go fin.

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surfjat
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2011 : 03:20:41

Thanks guys for your help.. Th fin keel is a fixerupper while th swinger is ready to go .. Once th fin is tlc'd to death cost is about th same.. Both hulls in great shape.. Ill let u kno which i go for.. I only hav exp with fins and there somethn cool bout takn a boat thata been sittn in a yard for four years and gttn her goin again.. Th fixer upper comes with sails no motor marine head dodger alc stove no speed a compass down below in great shape..

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2011 : 06:02:07

RI, salt water, mooring... Fin. Period.

What's the vintage? You'll get to buy a nice new Tohatsu 9.8 four-stroke (or Honda or Yamaha). No need for a speed log if you don't race--just use a GPS.

Keep in touch!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2011 06:07:42

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2011 : 06:53:01

Even if you do race, the GPS is more valuable, unless you are looking for currents.

Our 1984 fin sits in a slip all summer and on its cradle all winter. our keel maintenance has been limited to a powerwash at haulout, and a reapplication of bottom paint before launch in the spring. Every year we check for the catalina smile, but haven't seen it show up yet. Also regular checking of teh keel bolts is a good thing.

If you get the swinger, I suggest cutting the deck plate in teh salon in half fore and aft, and putting a hinge on it, then only securing teh foreward half of the plate. This allows you to lift the plate to check the bilge far more easily than with the plate secured. We did this a couple years ago and find that we check the bilge far more regularly. Also, the bilge is now used to store a spare bilge pump and hose just in case something ever happens, and it can be quickly and easily accessed.

Whether you get a cradle or trailer, check to be sure you can use/store it. A number of clubs around here are requiring folding cradles. the moving parts on these make them more prone to maintenance failures, but its really just 4 pivot points that could rust up. Point is, if you nee a folding cradle, be sure you get one. If the seller doesn't have one, negotiate downward by the cost of the conversion.

My only warning is that if you sail skinny waters the swing offers a little extra give for when you bump. We will often go to the beach, ease in to the shallows at 1-2 kts, drop anchor when the depth is right at 4.5 ft then ease back on the anchor to deeper water (offshore breeze) so far we have been OK doing that, but we know that if the wind swings, or there is a high spot in the bottom, we will be kedging off. I wouldn't advise this anyplace that gets decent wave action, our beach is pretty protected. With a swinger though, I would be a lot more relaxed in those sorts of situations.

Year of manufacture is pretty critical in the fin Keel. There are different upgrades for different model years.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2011 : 13:24:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Year of manufacture is pretty critical in the fin Keel. There are different upgrades for different model years.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, significant, but I wouldn't call it critical... Starting around 1983 (not sure of the year), Catalina changed from a cast iron keel with mild steel bolts and nuts, to an encapsulated lead keel with stainless bolts and nuts. The iron rusts, of course, although a little rust and pitting isn't critical (especially if you don't race)--there's a lot of iron down there! But the bolts are a little more of an issue--stainless is better (although not totally immune to failure). If you see shiny nuts on the keel bolts, you know.

Speaking of years, a "biggie" in my opinion was the change from a fuel tank shelf inside the port-side "sail locker" (or "dumpster"), to a dedicated fuel locker under the port cockpit seat--no more issues with leaks, spills, or fumes. That also happened in the early 80s. Mine was an '85 and had the lead keel and the fuel locker--important criteria for me when I was buying. I found out about those differences here.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/15/2011 14:02:30

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 09:06:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 The swing concentrates the ballast at the bottom of a deeper keel while most of the fin's mass is at the top, so the fin should heel more.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As a fin owner, I have to disagree that most of the mass is at the top of the fin keel. When looking from the front of the fin keel, one can see it is narrower at the top then flares out towards the bottom with it's additional 400lbs of ballast.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 10:47:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The swing concentrates the ballast at the bottom of a deeper keel while most of the fin's mass is at the top, so the fin should heel more.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just a guess since the keel appears to be half again as long at the top. The taper of the keel requires that the bottom be much thicker just to keep the center of mass near the center of the keel. The swing is thicker at the bottom, has no taper and is deeper. Like everything else, there probably isn't a noticeable difference and I don't think anybody will bother calculating or measuring to get an answer.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 15:32:05

I'm guessing that between the foot deeper swing and the 400 lb. heavier fin, the righting moment is about equal.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 17:46:37

Jerry - All of the above...my $.02...having owned a swing for 6 years - go w/ the wing...and IMHO - do us all favor and quit the text/tweet shorthand...

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 19:12:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I'm guessing that between the foot deeper swing and the 400 lb. heavier fin, the righting moment is about equal.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bear in mind the full 1,900 pound fin is all down low hanging from the stub beneath the hull whereas a portion of the swing keel, possibly a couple hundred pounds, is above this point extending up into the cabin.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2011 : 19:28:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 [quote]Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Bear in mind the full 1,900 pound fin is all down low hanging from the stub beneath the hull whereas a portion of the swing keel, possibly a couple hundred pounds, is above this point extending up into the cabin.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Also true... Probable "stiffness" advantage to the fin. But if you're sailing in the Narragansett, out into the Atlantic, out to Block, over to the MA islands, etc., you have little need for a swinger and its maintenance issues, and lots of good reasons for a fin.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/16/2011 19:29:53

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