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Deploying dual genoas simultaneously legal?

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Fleet
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Initially Posted - 10/05/2011 : 10:13:46

We were thinking about fooling around and attempt to fly a 155 and a 100 at the same time while going downwind. I took a quick glance at "Racing Rules of Sailing" and couldn't find anything that says this is illegal. Can anyone quote the rule saying this is illegal? Has anyone tried this? I've never seen anyone do this and we are curious. I have a Harken Carbofoil and I'm also concerned that flying both genoas will tear the tracks off.

Fleet
Kamikaze
1983 Hull #397
Lake Guntersville, AL

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 12:02:10

I can't cite the rule, but under Chesapeake Bay PHRF, flying twin headsails is only legal when the sailing instructions expressly allow it. There are a few races each year in this area that allow them. I have done it a few times. The first time was racing 70 miles downwind in 18-25 kt winds. The windward headsail was poled out, until we broke the pole, and the leeward headsail was free-flying. None of us in the crew had done it before, and we started the race downwind, wing-and-wing, with only a jib and main. We were scared to raise the second genoa in that much wind, but we screwed up our courage, and I don't think we got below hull speed all night. We were all amazed at how stable the boat was with that much sail area. It was nowhere near as unstable as a spinnaker would have been in similar conditions. In fact, early in the race, we watched one spinnaker after another on other boats explode from too much wind. We finished first in our class in that race.

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Fleet
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 15:49:55

Thanks for the reply Steve. When you had both headsails up, you also had the mainsail up and I assume to leeward? How do you attach the headsails to your forestay? Hanks, foil or ?

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 17:45:47

I have seen the rule somewhere - but darned if I can find it (maybe it's in PHRF SoCal). It is definitely a PHRF position.
It basically states that "twin headsails shall not be flown except during the act of changing headsails"

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 19:59:41

C-25 class rules allow a 155% headsail maximum. (I know, you're talking about Capri 25s, which specify a maximum LP I'm guessing is for a 155.) It seems to me that a 155 plus a 100, particularly down-wind wing-and-wing, is 255%. How else would you interpret that? PHRF assumes a boat configured "as designed", as a way of leveling the field. Class rules for any boat would seem to be the official definition of "as designed." How would you feel if a C-22 went by you with two masts and an outrigger (ama), and you couldn't find a "rule" that prevented it? (C-25 rules don't. They refer to "the mast", but nothing about "the other mast", or "no amas".)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/05/2011 20:32:17

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 20:35:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fleet
 Thanks for the reply Steve. When you had both headsails up, you also had the mainsail up and I assume to leeward? How do you attach the headsails to your forestay? Hanks, foil or ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Right. The mainsail was flying to leeward. Essentially, we were sailing wing-and-wing, with an extra wing thrown in. I have only done twin headsails on boats with a headfoil with two slots. It can also be done with hanked-on sails, but I haven't seen it done. With hanked-on sails, I believe both headsails have to be raised at once. As I understand it, the extra headsail is only hanked on with the top hank, and is attached at the tack. Each sail has it's own halliard.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/05/2011 20:54:25

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 20:50:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 C-25 class rules allow a 155% headsail maximum. (I know, you're talking about Capri 25s, which specify a maximum LP I'm guessing is for a 155.) It seems to me that a 155 plus a 100, particularly down-wind wing-and-wing, is 255%. How else would you interpret that? PHRF assumes a boat configured "as designed", as a way of leveling the field. Class rules for any boat would seem to be the official definition of "as designed." How would you feel if a C-22 went by you with two masts and an outrigger (ama), and you couldn't find a "rule" that prevented it? (C-25 rules don't. They refer to "the mast", but nothing about "the other mast", or "no amas".)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave, what makes twin headsails "fair" is that they don't race against boats that are only flying one headsail. When twin headsails are allowed, they race in a separate class in which all the boats are flying twin headsails. In the 70 naut. mile race that I mentioned, we didn't fly a 155 and a 100. My recollection is that we flew two big headsails of equal size. Our sail area was huge, which is why we were scared to hoist the second genny in so much wind. I never read the sailing instructions for that race, so I don't know what limitation was made on the size of the sails, but I know the skipper of that boat bought another sail from Bacon specifically for that race, and I'm sure he was flying every bit of sail area that was permitted. I wouldn't be surprised if they were twin 155's, because they were both big sails, but I didn't measure them.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/05/2011 20:52:41

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/05/2011 : 21:05:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I have seen the rule somewhere - but darned if I can find it (maybe it's in PHRF SoCal). It is definitely a PHRF position.
It basically states that "twin headsails shall not be flown except during the act of changing headsails"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
PHRF in different locales might have different rules, but on the Chesapeake Bay, PHRF rules prohibit twin headsails unless they are expressly permitted by the sailing instructions for the particular race. In short, the race organizers can allow twin headsails, and it does add a dimension to sail trim and sail handling that makes it different and interesting. I have seen the Ches. Bay rule, 2-3 years ago, but just got home late from a race and only found a text with print too small to read.

But, even if they aren't permitted by PHRF in your locale, that doesn't mean you can't go out and play with twin headsails, when you aren't racing. Long distance cruisers love them.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/05/2011 21:10:58

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 03:18:12

Aha! Found it, but the wording of the rule seems to have changed slightly (but not in substance) from the way I remember it, so that it is no longer left up to the race organizers alone. Rule 16(C) of the 2011 Standard Sail & Equipment Specifications for PHRF of the Chesapeake Bay provides, in relevant part, as follows:

"The double headsail class allows the concurrent use of more than one headsail while racing. For the single headsail class, only one (1) headsail may be used at a time while racing, except for cutter rigs flying headsails in the normal configuration. Two (2) headsails may be flown during a sail change, which must be completed in a seaman-like manner."

Thus, Ches. PHRF expressly authorizes twin headsails, so long as they are racing in a separate class. I don't recall seeing a separate class for them in most races, so I suspect a separate class is still only created when specified by the race organizer in the sailing instructions. I imagine that is because most racers don't want to race with twin headsails all the time.

Edit: I just checked the PHRF Rules for Southern Cal, and Appendix D governs "Cruising Class" racing. Paragraph 3(C) provides that "Dual headsails with whisker poles are permitted." I haven't looked to see whether they are permitted in any other classes, but it is clear that they are permitted by So Cal PHRF in at least the cruising class.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/06/2011 05:24:36

Fleet
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 05:12:57

This is great. What I can summarize so far is that "Rules of Racing" does not reference this configuration. Regional/Local PHRF's may allow for it but in a separate "Twin headsail" class. Race organizers may or may not reference this configuration. Flying the extra genoa does add speed and is not unstable. I did some more searching and found a thread where somebody had used an aluminum twin slot foil to fly the sails. I can't find where anybody has successfully used a plastic Tuff Luff or Harken Carbofoil. I'm worried that instead of the inline force of a single genoa, that the side forces of dual genoas will split the plastic foil. Right now I'm not willing to risk cracking my foil to play around with this configuration.

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Fleet
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 05:23:34

I do agree with Dave, that if I register as having a 155% max (class or no class spec) that I am exceeding the 155% max if I add the extra 100% going downwind. That "little" detail would probably make it illegal to fly dual genoas in a non-spinnaker class race.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 05:42:01

Wayzata Yacht Club appears to have the largest number of Capri 25s anywhere. Perhaps some of their members have experimented with twin headsails flown from a Tuff Luff or other racing foil. If any are following this thread, they might be able to tell us whether those type foils can tolerate twin headsails.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 07:01:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Dave, what makes twin headsails "fair" is that they don't race against boats that are only flying one headsail. When twin headsails are allowed, they race in a separate class in which all the boats are flying twin headsails...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Which I agree is perfectly legitimate. I wonder, however, if the SoCal Cruising Class rule you found might reduce participation in cruising classes. I know a lot of Wed. night white-sail racers who probably say there's already a spinnaker class--where's the class that doesn't require a foredeck crew to compete?

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 07:43:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Dave, what makes twin headsails "fair" is that they don't race against boats that are only flying one headsail. When twin headsails are allowed, they race in a separate class in which all the boats are flying twin headsails...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Which I agree is perfectly legitimate. I wonder, however, if the SoCal Cruising Class rule you found might reduce participation in cruising classes. I know a lot of Wed. night white-sail racers who probably say there's already a spinnaker class--where's the class that doesn't require a foredeck crew to compete?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'll have to guess that the So Cal cruising class is separated into JAM and Twin headsail sub-classes, the same way Ches. Bay PHRF does it. That's the only way that would seem to make sense. Otherwise, you're right; people who just want to race JAM would be forced to fly twin headsails if they want to be competitive, and that would probably reduce participation.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 09:43:52

Would the flying of twin headsails not change you sail measurements. basically, you would have to get your boat measured and a new PHRF applied for the extra sail area?

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 10:57:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Would the flying of twin headsails not change you sail measurements. basically, you would have to get your boat measured and a new PHRF applied for the extra sail area?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yacht racing is traditionally considered a "gentleman's sport," in which the participants are expected to police their own conduct, and comply voluntarily with the rules. Accordingly, when you apply for a PHRF certificate, you are supposed to truthfully disclose, in writing, the size of your biggest sail. I have never heard of any PHRF officials around here actually measuring anyone's sails to determine compliance, except on occasion at the C25 National Regatta. I think that, if you disclosed that your largest sail was a 155%, and you carried two of them, consistent with the rules, it wouldn't change your measurement or your rating. In fact, many single-headsail racers ordinarily carry two 155's. One is designed for use in light air, and one is designed for use in heavy air. Having two 155% headsails on board doesn't change their rating. If twin-headsail racers were allowed to race against single-headsail racers, then a handicap allowance would have to be assessed against the twin, but, since twins only race against other twins, I don't think there is any need to change the ratings of the respective boats. I'm no PHRF expert, but that's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 14:08:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...since twins only race against other twins, I don't think there is any need to change the ratings of the respective boats. I'm no PHRF expert, but that's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sounds reasonable... But it doesn't sound like SoCal PHRF has made that distinction. "Cruising Class" generally defines a wide spectrum of boats that are not "racers", sometimes with Dacron sails only, often subdivided between spin and non-spin. I'm surprised if the SoCal rules say any and all of those can fly double headsails without a separate subdivision or ratings for up to 310% (155x2)--that or put them in the spin division. (With good sail handling, they might win it.)

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/06/2011 : 16:48:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I'm surprised if the SoCal rules say any and all of those can fly double headsails without a separate subdivision or ratings for up to 310% (155x2)--that or put them in the spin division. (With good sail handling, they might win it.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Every time I have raced with twin headsails, we beat some spinnaker boats with faster ratings than the boat I was crewing on. There's no effort to equalize twin headsail boats with spinnaker boats, since they aren't technically competing against each other, but one can't help noticing it when one overtakes and passes other boats with big, bright, colorful sails.

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