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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Swing Keel

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jlannutti
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/07/2011 : 07:36:23

Hi, Newbie here.
I just looked at a Catalina 250swing keel in VA and am strongly considering buying it. I hope someone out there would be king enough to give me an opinion on something.
The boat is up on stands and the keel is about half way down and resting on a wooden block. When I remove the block and leave the keel suspended by the line attached to it (a painter line I guess) it has a lot of play in it both side to side and some twist. I assume that the pin or whatever it hinges on has more"slop" than it should. My questions are:
1. Can I just remove the bolts that go into the hull and drop the board and the hinge pin?

2. Is there a bushing in the board that I can just replace or will I have to build up the fiberglass "hole" through which that pin goes?

3. Can I just re-insert the bolts and tighten them up to re-install the board or will I need to fill the old holes with something and re-drill them. I have no idea what those bolts go into.

It is otherwise a sound looking boat and pretty much just what I am looking for. I believe it is a 1997 or 1998 I think.

Edited by - on

jinman2560
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2011 : 07:50:37

Hi newbie here again. I think I made a mistake in signing on. My post came up attributed to someone else. The gentleman who told me about this site gave me a link and I somehow passed as him during the log in process; accidentally I assure you. My apologies to him and all of you. Please respond to me at jimnam@gmail.com.
Thank you

Joe Inman

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2011 : 08:26:18

Joe, welcome to the forum. It's not likely that anyone will reply via e-mail. You should check back periodically to find responses. You'll learn a lot about our boats here.

First, there's no such animal as a C250 "swing keel". There are wing keel and a water ballast versions. What you have likely seen was the water ballast version. Those have a centerboard, not a keel. The distinction is an important one. The centerboard only weighs around 100 pounds (if memory serves me right). That's really just enough to keep it from floating but doesn't provide any real ballast. It is to simply reduce leeway while sailing. The ballast is provided by the water tanks under the sole of the boat's cabin and that provides righting capability in the event of a knockdown.. The boat is not to be sailed unless the tanks are full.

Next, it is always the recommendation on this forum that a new(to you) boat have a professional survey prior to purchase. This will be the best $400-$500 you'll spend. The surveyor will provide you with a detailed report as to what issues the boat might have. Your insurance company and/or marina may also require a survey before providing coverage. This would include an examination of the centerboard and its attachments.

Others will chime in with the specifics of reducing the play in the centerboard. You might also search the archives here for previous threads on the subject.

BTW, on the chance that the boat you looked at did indeed have a 1500# swing keel and is a 25 foot Catalina, it is a Catalina 25, not a 250 and was produced prior to 1990. Still a great boat, just different and a bit older.

Edited by - John Russell on 11/07/2011 08:32:34

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2011 : 10:37:26

This is the time to fix centerboard slop. Shims are available to take slop out of centerboard movement. Bolts will go right back into original holes. When I did this many years ago. I cut the heads off two like bolts and used them as an alignment pin. It's best to put the pin back in the way it came out. This is no big deal and a lot easier with the boat on stands. Also, a good time to look that cable over and replace at that time. Retro - fit cable is available if there is any concern. [Also bargaining chips on final price.]

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2011 : 10:48:42

Welcome, Joe! As John says, the older C-25 has a "swing keel"--1500 lbs. of cast iron... I suspect you would have had a lot more trouble removing the block under it, and that alone leaves me confident you were looking at a C-250.

I'm curious... Do you plan to keep the boat on a trailer or in the water? What body of water? I ask because, in case you're not aware, the C-250 also comes in a wing keel configuration, which is generally the choice for leaving in the water, and offers considerably more headroom in the cabin--no ballast tanks under the sole. The water ballast (centerboard) model is more for ease and weight of trailering. Your statement that this one was on stands suggests it has not been trailed (much), and might not be the optimal choice.

There are occasional debates here on the sailing characteristics of the two--I'm not qualified to comment. But the Search function above/right, which can focus on the C-250 forum, will lead you to countless useful discussions on these boats.

Again, welcome, and good luck in your quest!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/07/2011 10:51:32

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2011 : 12:13:26

Joe, you mentioned that
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the keel suspended by the line attached to it (a painter line I guess)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So I'm guessing it is a C250WB, as the C25 Swing Keels have a wire cable to raise/lower the keel.

It is soooooooo much easier to work on the centerboard when the boat is on stands (but do make sure it's securely on stands and that they are corrected positioned).

The 4 bolts drop out with the two castings. Make it easy to relocate the castings by putting a mark on one of them, they are really not reversable.

With the centerboard out, you could inspect the turning ball at the top aft end of the centerboard box.

Some have used very large diameter shims to reduce the slop of the board, it helps keep things quiet inside the boat overnight when the boat is in choppy water.

The bolts go into embedded nuts. Not sure if they are threaded tubes or just embedded nuts.

If you do remove the centerboard, inspect the spindle / centerboard interface, that is another area for slop, very easily fixed (I did ours when the boat was on the trailer - but would be so much easier on stands)

Welcome to the forum.

Paul

Edited by - on

jinman2560
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2011 : 06:12:09

Thank you all for such prompt responses.

The boat is indeed a Cat 250 water ballast model with kick a up rudder.

This will work best for me as I encounter shallow water often where I sail. I do not intend to trailer the boat. I looked at a great boat in the Philly/Riverside NJ area that is in much better shape than the one I am writing about but, alas, it's all about the money. My finances are such that I am looking for a vessel that needs lots of TLC and is priced accordingly.

britinusa:
You said that the spindle/centerboard interface might be the cause of the problem and that you had found an easy fix. May I ask what it was that you did to fix this problem?
Also, the oversized shims you spoke of; are they available from Catalina or Catalina Direct.
Finally, I assume thast this will be a two man job which is no problem but how difficult will it be to break those bolts free.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2011 : 06:51:28

Getting the bolts out was easy in my case, your boat may be older, stiffer!

If I recall, there was a spindle housing that is glassed into the centerboard, a tube thru which the centerboard spindle passes. I simply made up a fiberglass strand and resin mix, then packed that into the gap that had formed around the spindle.

I did this with the boat on the trailer, so it was a pain working in that confined space. Doing the job with the boat on stands would be a breeze.

If the centerboard lifting line is long enough, then you could use that to lower the board to the ground when the spindle is out.

I got a set of 'thicker' shims from Catalina, but they were only a couple of inches outer diameter. If my boat were on stands, then I would manufacture much wider diameter shims. On stands, it would be easy to insert/remove them several times till the optimum thickness were determined. I would be hoping to end up with shims that were about 6" in outside diameter, the more the better.

The 'keel slap' seems to occur when the centerboard is hanging without sideways pressure (no slap when under sail unless dead down wind). The slap appears to be the sound when the bottom end of the board slaps the sides of the centerboard trunk if the board is up, or the top end of the board slaping the sides of the coffee table box when the board is lowered.

I believe IMHO, that the use of very wide diameter shims would eliminate that slap.

I intend to do this myself if I ever put JD on stands.

Edited by - on

jinman2560
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2011 : 04:21:39

In previous threads to this post I've read that the addition of shims to the centerboard can take some of the slop out of the board. I looked on Catalina Direct for the shims but did not see them. I next called Catalina in Largo and first spoke with a gentleman named Bob who seemed most helpful and transferred me to the parts department and another gentleman named Ken. Ken did not seem to know what I was talking about and said he'd check it out but after another conversation or two with him he does not seem to know anything about shims for the centerboard. Is there anyone out there who knows about this fix and specifically where I can get the shims?

Edited by - on

britinusa
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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2011 : 05:21:23

When I 'fixed' our swing, Catalina sent me the shims.

However, they were simply a pair of while plastic washers, about 2"+ in outer diameter with the center hole the size of the spindle.

I'm guessing they were about 3/32" thick. And were in addition to the original black plastic shims that were on the spindle when I removed it.

As mentioned earlier, if the boat is on stands, this whole project would be easy and I would add shimming to the housing box above the spindle and where the lower tip of the swing board is located when the board is raised.

Paul

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2011 : 20:02:34

Most water ballast boats were not designed nor intended to remain in the water for long periods of time. If you buy one you should seriously consider buying a trailer and dry-sailing it.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2011 : 08:56:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Most water ballast boats were not designed nor intended to remain in the water for long periods of time. If you buy one you should seriously consider buying a trailer and dry-sailing it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Why? It's a cold, snowy day and I'm bored. So, I thought I'd ask.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2011 : 11:19:13

This is according to our marina manager: The water ballast tanks will be more susceptible to interior damage like delamination and joint failure if they are kept continuously full of water, not to mention algea and other marine growth that would be difficult to remove, and fixing an interior tank lining problem will be most likely very expensive.
Also, it stands to reason that the water ballast system was devised primarily to facilitate trailering and ramp launching/retrieval, so the boats were intended to live on a trailer when not being sailed.

Edited by - on

jinman2560
Deckhand

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5 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2012 : 05:42:31

The folks at Catalina will not get back to me regarding the shims for my centerboard. I told them that several people I've corresponded with on this site got them but they act as though they've never hear of any problems with center board "slop". They are always friendly and promise to look into it and get back to me but they never do.
My intention now is to fabricate my own out of plastic. I have a few types that all seem tough enough for the job but not brittle enough to crack. As some of you suggested I'll go with a 6" disk with a 1" hole in the center. Britinusa stated his were about 3/32" so I'll try to some up with a finished product in that neighborhood. Question now is: Should I put the new shims inboard or outboard of the washers already there from Catalina? As always. I'm grateful for aby help. Thanks!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2012 : 08:30:13

I'd put them right up against the centerboard. Putting them outside the washers will allow space between the CB and the shim. Isn't that what you're trying to eliminate?

Edited by - on

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