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Glassing in bulkheads and supporting keel

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usa 63
1st Mate

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USA
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Initially Posted - 12/05/2011 : 21:56:52

My team and I have raced our Capri 25 very hard over the summer racing season. The boat has preformed fairly well and hasn't had many problems and seems fairly stable in heavy air but the supports for the mast and keel don't not seem very strong. The "bulkheads" were all replaced last season but they really don't seem to support the boat as much as I would like. The boat would fall apart without them but I feel they are not the best kind of bulkhead for the job. Another problem a lot of us face is the 3/4" plywood keel support has rotten out and doing nothing but holding water. This cant be good for the boat and some sort of support system should be built. In the class rules it states we must have a factory or equivalent. My question is what does that mean? Could I cut out and put in a glass grid over the keel and remove parts of the cabin to tab bulkheads into the outer hull as long as my racing weight stays the same? I saw an article on Sailing Anarchy where someone did that but replaced it and my thoughts are I can improve the layout and usefulness of the boat. Its a great boat that we are beating a lot of very good boats with but I don't want it to fall apart.

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usa 63
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/10/2011 : 14:45:39

Come on 50 people have looked at this but no ones said anything. Would love to hear anything from anyone.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/10/2011 : 15:20:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by usa 63
 Come on 50 people have looked at this but no ones said anything. Would love to hear anything from anyone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I hate it when someone asks a question on the forum and doesn't get a response. The Capri forum is our newest forum, with the fewest members, and it takes awhile for a new forum to build a following. It took a few years for the C250 forum to do so. While a new forum is building, we often respond to queries, even though we don't own the same type boat. When we do that, we can only offer somewhat generalized information or advice.

That being said, I'll tell you how I would interpret the rule relating to repairs. The manifest purpose of the racing rules is to maintain a level playing field for all the racers, so that all the boats maintain the same competitive ability as when they were originally built. That means you can't significantly change the profile of the rudder, keel or hull, and you can't significantly change the sailplan, or make other significant alterations, in any manner that will make the boat more competitive. However, as boats age and require maintenance, we are confronted with the practical consideration that they will no longer be fit to race if they can't be repaired. In my opinion, the rule must be construed to permit alterations that strengthen or reinforce the structure, so long as they don't materially increase the competitive performance of the boat. The rule exists to preserve the equality of the class, and it only applies to alterations which violate that principle.

So long as any alterations that you make don't coincidentally also improve the performance of the boat, I don't see why anyone should have a legitimate basis to complain.

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joearcht
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Response Posted - 12/11/2011 : 06:31:57

I'll say this, the last time our club did a PHRF evaluation for our ratings a lot of attention was paid to "weight". I don't know if what you are contemplating will increase the weight of the boat or lighten it, but you will note in our class rules that if you remove the cushions from your cabin then you have to replace the weight of the cushions with a specifically placed substitute weight at various locations in the cabin. That seems pretty "detailed" to me and I'd be concerned that IF you are racing in class events that you may open yourself up to complaints with the modification you are proposing. It may just come down to how competitive your competition is and how bad they want to win. Hard to predict for sure. I also suspect that someone could argue that you have stiffened the boat and thus changed the sail plan response to wind, who knows. Sorry to be the devils advocate here, but you asked. Bottom line - competing in class events, stay with the original design, competing in PHRF, go for it.

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joearcht
Navigator

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Response Posted - 12/11/2011 : 06:34:42

just thought of this, you need to get in touch with the Capri 25 class measurer to see what is comments would be if he inspected your boat after the modifications

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usa 63
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/11/2011 : 18:55:17

Thanks for the responses. We love the shape and style of the boat but it seems like some of the structure is very week by today's standards. The boat is a strict racer so we don't really care about looks and we plan on keeping the boat so not really worried about someone else not liking it. I would love to get in contact with the measurer to see what the rules say. We really like the boat but what her to hold together for years to come and I don't feel like putting a band-aid on it.

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Ericson33
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/11/2011 : 20:26:50

re-read the rule book, its online and very clear on what can be changed. If you are planning on racing OD then I would say no modification can be made to the boat that would make your boat stiffer than another, re: using a different material for the bulkheads or removing the crappy plywood at the keel base and replacing this with a steel support, ect....

I for one would just keep on trucking with the same design, if it needs to be replaced because of damage then repair the damaged areas with new materials that are the same as before. You dont want to take a 20+ year old boat and add structural material thats going to rip or stress the old glass to bits. I would not even think about tabbing the glass to the hull, the design is to float insode of the boat with the liner panel and the rear bulkheads are a joke and the whole design of the sump area needs to be ripped out and replaced with something that will not fill the boat full of water if and when she goes over on her ear.

The port and starboard lazerette compartment is just an accident to happen, if you dont have locks on these please do so before the boat goes over and sinks. This has happened to my knowledge in 1980-1981 and is just as a sloppy design as the older J24's. Personally I would glass in some narrow depth panels and seal this whole area up from running water to the rear transom area and directly under the boat and into the cabin area.

If you race it would be the very first mod.

So onto the bulkheads, they are 3/4" marine grade plywood. the rears are 1/4" maybe 1/2" and are a total joke, why? you ask....because they only support the rear of the boat from oilcanning, thats it. If you tab the rears in you will start to notice vertical structural lines in the hull from the boat not flexing like it was designed. The forward bulkheads are also like this design, but are held into place by the liner in the boat, so when the boat flexes the liner creats pressure on the under side of the top deck and its held into place by several 1/2" screws....yep thats it. Take the old rubrail off and take a good look, they are spaced about every 8" down both sides of the hull and deck. The hull joint is about 1/4" glass at the thickest at the point where the hull bends back onto itself ceating a 180 deg. lip. The hull is set directly down onto this lip and is attached with some caulk and the screws.

Chainplates are good and attach well to the bulkheads. the compression post is used to keep the mast from going thru the deck, thats it. If you have damage to the post then replace it before it goes thru the deck ore thru the makeshift post base at the base of the mast, again made out of plywood.

The guys on SA did take a Capri 25 and beef her up, she was also raced offshore and I belive was classed as a IOR rule. again if you are wanting to stay in the class rules then you have to keep the boat stock. I would have loved to stick a larger boom on this boat, put a huge roach main sail on her and get the power of the boat off of the forsail and back onto the main.

I get post on the forum on my phone and would love to chat more about the boat, I just get email and dont really come looking for threads, ect.

My background:
I owned a Capri 25 for 6 yrs
totally went thru every inch of the boat and rebuilt her from stem to stern
I am the reason you can post on this fourm as we joined the Capri25.com website with this one.
I created Capri25.com
I love to sail
The Capri 25 is a great boat to sail OD and is not an offshore racer.

Edited by - on

usa 63
1st Mate

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42 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2011 : 08:53:25

Looking at the rules I was confused by the wording. It states "1.The yacht must be sailed with factory standing rigging and hull, factory standard interiors, windows, hatch, companionway boards, or equivalent" My question is what is equivalent? Im not planing on racing any class races but dont want to change so much that phrf hits my rating too much. Right now were rated a 174 and are sailing in the 159 range so we have alittle rating to give away if it makes the boat stronger. Some of the design of the boat is just plan stupid. Has anyone looked at a new j24? They look nothing like one from the 80's but all still race together. To me the rear bulk heads also keep the boat from pulling apart when you grind in the jib on heavy days but mine dont because they have fallen out sense we started sailing in march making them useless. The hull of the boat seems farly stiff " I can lift it with four pads and it doesnt oil can. I have an early boat that seems to be build better than some of the newer ones but it still could use alot of work. The boat had alot of water in it before I bought it so I had to replase all the bulkheads and seats but could replace the 3/4" ply above the keel. Every time I bail the boat out after a big rain I get 3 or 4 chucks of wet ply that should be holding the boat together. In order to repair this Im going to have to rip out the floor and replace the wood. It will cost alot more to make it the same rather than right and I'll still have the same isues down the road.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/12/2011 : 09:43:41

Laws and other rules seem clear when we write them, but they lose clarity when you have an infinite number of sea lawyers each interpreting them in ways that will determine the outcome of a race. According to our currently posted list of Flag Officers and Staff, there is currently no Capri 25 Chief Measurer, so you don't have an official to interpret it for you. However, I think Chris is correct in saying that you can't make the hull significantly stiffer than it was originally. I don't see any reason why you need to use the exact same materials, so long as they are functionally equivalent to the original materials, for example, they only make the boat more resistant to water damage or rot, but they don't affect the way the boat performs.

In the absence of a chief measurer, I think the primary person you have to satisfy is your local phrf ratings official who must assign a rating for your boat. I would discuss your plans with him before you start the repairs, seek his approval, and document each step with photos, so that you have proof of what you did. If your phrf official is satisfied, then it seems unlikely that anyone will successfully challenge your phrf rating. However, I would also make a conscientious effort to make the alterations comply with the intent of the Capri Association rules, even if you don't intend to race in Association sanctioned races.

I would discourage any thoughts of improving the boat in any way that might make it stiffer in heavy weather conditions, or improve it's performance in any respect. In our sport, we are expected to police ourselves, and conformance with the rules is and should be a matter of personal trust.

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usa 63
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/12/2011 : 11:24:11

Thanks for you you reply steve I understand what everone is saying but does anyone think it may be time to allow some changes to keep our boats from ending up in the landfill. I have spoken with my phrf board and they have allowed me to do a few things without class rules saying if I could or couldnt do something. How would someone apply for the class measurer possition?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/12/2011 : 12:20:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by usa 63
 Thanks for you you reply steve I understand what everone is saying but does anyone think it may be time to allow some changes to keep our boats from ending up in the landfill. I have spoken with my phrf board and they have allowed me to do a few things without class rules saying if I could or couldnt do something. How would someone apply for the class measurer possition?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In my opinion, the rules do allow latitude for alterations that will preserve the boats, but the rules don't allow you to improve them, and then to continue racing them in the Capri 25 one-design class, if they no longer conform to the one-design specifications.

To answer your question, I don't think the one design specifications should be changed. As I have already said, I think there's already latitude in the rules to repair and maintain the boats without altering their performance characteristics. If you alter the boat so as to improve it's performance capability, then it's no longer fair to race it against other Capri 25s that are being maintained consistently with factory specifications. That's the purpose of one design racing rules. They preserve a level playing field, so that the contest is more one of sailing skill, than of skillful boat modification.

You can't change the rules by simply becoming the Chief Measurer, and then "interpreting" the rules any way you wish. Words have meanings, and the other racers have a legally enforceable right to have the racing rules interpreted correctly, and consistently with their ordinary usages, and consistently with the purpose of the rules. As we have seen in the America's Cup, if the meaning of the rules can't be resolved within the organization, the courts can be called upon to settle the dispute, if it's important enough to someone to take the matter to court. Sailors don't like that when it happens, but that's the plain fact in the world in which we live.

Besides, IMO, it's much more satisfying to win a race by superior sailing than by superior technology.

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hwy61sail
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 12/16/2011 : 12:09:50

For the Wayzata Capri Fleet, this issue involved a great deal of discussion last spring. Below is the response to petitions requesting a variance to the original construction methods.

In short, most design changes were dis-allowed. However properly applying the intended assembly techniques, regardless of the original factory results, was encouraged. The most striking change to the original construction was to allow gap filling of the small void below the 3/4" plywood. This variance provides a method of addressing leaks and rotting plywood without having to dis-assemble the interior of the boat for repairs.

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The Capri 25 design is more than 30 years old. The last manufacturing occurred 24 years ago. Beyond the occasional incidents and hard racing, time may be starting to wear on the boats structure and even impact the overall safety of the boat. Recently petitions have been received requesting a variance to the original construction methods to effect repairs.

In considering granting a repair variance the rules committee had the opportunity to review two gutted Capri 25s. The inspections exposed a number of concerns about the overall quality of the boat assembly. However, when looking past the assembly issues, it was concluded that the original design was well thought out and structurally sound. Additionally, a bit of detective work confirmed that a stringer spanning the center line of the boat, from the compression post to the front of the keel box and again from the back of the keel box to the rear of the plywood sub-floor, was not placed in all boats. Another consideration involves an existing modification to one of the boats in the fleet. This modification involved filling the air gap separating the plywood sub-floor and the boat hull.

Ruling

Materials

Bulk-heads and the plywood sub-floor may be replaced with marine grade plywood or a substance that provides similar characteristics. An example of an optional material would be Airex (also known as Penske Board). The thickness of the sub-floor may not exceed ¾ of an inch.

Stringers are defined as wood strips that run fore and aft under the interior liner and above the sub-floor. Stringer material may not exceed a width of 1 inch and when installed may be bonded to both the liner and the sub-floor, but the bonding process must not block flow of water in the chamber that separates the sub-floor from the interior liner as this space is effectively the bilge area for the boat.

Compression post footing – This is a wooden board that attaches to the hull starting from the aft end of the compression post and extending toward the bow of the boat for a length of between 10 and 24 inches. The minimum width of this board will be 4 inches and the maximum width of this board will be 6 inches. The maximum thickness of the board will be 3 inches.

Construction Method

Boat repairs are to be limited to using the original methods of construction. With allowances for the following exceptions:

a) The compression post footing may consist of teak or any other wood species that provides equivalent or improved resistance to compression loads (i.e. as hard or harder than teak, example: white oak)

b) The compression post footing may be bedded into the hull with a bonding mix that when poured:
* Will not extend aft of the back of the compression post.
* Will not exceed a thickness of 2 inches.
* Will not cover an area greater than 12 inches by 12 inches

c) Even if not originally installed, stringers supporting the liner floor may be positioned on the center line of the boat from the compression post to the leading edge of the keel box and continue from the back of the keel box 15 inches. These stringers will be positioned on the top of the sub-floor and below the liner.

d) Filling the air gap separating the sub-floor and the boat hull is allowed, however the material used must be impermeable to water (i.e. will not absorb water).

e) Bulk-heads may be tabbed to either the inner liner or the boat hull.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/16/2011 : 12:24:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hwy61sail
 For the Wayzata Capri Fleet, this issue involved a great deal of discussion last spring. Below is the response to petitions requesting a variance to the original construction methods....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Thanks for the info. It sounds like the Wayzata guys have given the question a lot of thought and have established clearly defined standards. Nicely done!

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usa 63
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/20/2011 : 19:52:18

So does this meen that I can tab the rear bulkheads in and add a grid over the keel and strengthen the hull under the compression post? With that out of the way, Steve I'm not trying to change the class I just think it may be time to look at the rules and vote on if we need any changes. If we want to keep our boats 100% factory lets state it and make a measurement guide like most other one design classes have. It would be easy to measure 10 boats and make a guide. Now we have nothing compared to most any one design class. We don't have to get too crazy but you guys have to agree that our rules right now suck and even if every rule made sense there are no mins or maxes to look at. To those who don't know me I bought the boat with some money I got from graduating high school. I found the boat in the back of the boatyard I worked at the summer before and instantly knew I had to buy it. It was sitting on a rusty old power boat trailer with a shipping cradle welded to it but it made it home and I started working on it. I replace all of the interior wood pulled the windows and filled the doghouse with epoxy after finishing my work on the windows I started working on the outside. I sanded the hull from the rub rail to the tip of the keel and filled 600 blisters by the end of summer. College started and the Capri was put on the back burner. Lots of sailing on other peoples boats and a few years later a buddy sees the Capri and tells me we should fix it up and sail it with our friends all under 25. With the owner of the last boat I raced on selling him boat I said why not and we started finishing her up. We got the hull painted and 4 gallons of 2000 painted and looking good the day before the first race and went out to win my a half mile. We sailed the fist 10 races at a 174 until we dropped our rating to a 171 to race the wavelengths and J 24's because of our fleet splits. After a season we won a lot of races and learned a lot about our selves as well and the boat. Every one that was part of the team got to drive at least one regatta and everyone had a great summer because of the boat. Sorry for the life story but I thought I needed to tell it so you can see where I'm coming from. I'm not wanting to change the rules I'm some clarification on what I'm allowed to do to keep my boat around for a while. after pulling it last week I found a large bump under the compression post and the hull now oil cans in the back. the screwed in rear bulk heads fell out so I figure that may have some thing to do with but but it there that important I thin they should be made of foam and glassed in. Sorry again for my rant but I would really like to be apart of the class its such a fast boat.

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Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2011 : 20:45:08

1. You stated above the rear didn't oilcan, but now you do.
2. You can't change the rules without WYC. Follow the above modifications, email them if you need clarification.
3. Keep up the good work but remember, its a 30 plus old design. Look at you bottom line and spend what you need.

I enjoy your enthusiasm, reminds me of myself.

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usa 63
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/20/2011 : 21:29:16

They didn't when I put boat in the water in mach but do bad now. Bulk head fell out during season due to flexing. So is WYC the "class" because they have 30+ boat? Not looking to take anything away from them but we have 5 25's which makes us a fleet as well.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/21/2011 : 05:49:18

I haven't studied the Capri rules in depth, because I have never owned a Capri 25, but I haven't seen anything about them that sucks. They look like what you would expect for any one design racing class. The fundamental purpose of the rules is to prevent the weakening of one design standards. No one design class that I have ever known permits significant structural alterations to the boat.

Wayzata is more devoted to their racing class than any similar racing class I have seen, and they obviously have many members who have developed considerable technical expertise relating to the Capri 25. I don't know anyone who knows more about the Capri 25 than they do. That's why most of us view them as the leaders in matters relating to the Capri 25, and you should ask them to help you understand their ruling on modifications. (Based on our discussion so far, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that your modifications are all ok. I'd suggest you discuss that with the well informed guys at Wayzata.) Frankly, I wouldn't approach them with the thought of prevailing upon them to change their thinking with regard to modifications. I haven't seen any reason to believe that they are off track in that respect, and I expect that they will be at least as determined in their opinions as you.

Good luck! It sounds like you and your friends are enjoying all the excitement that racing has to offer.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/21/2011 07:14:25

usa 63
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 12/25/2011 : 19:53:22

Who do I need to talk to at wyc? Also are their rulings class legal?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/25/2011 : 20:29:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by usa 63
 Who do I need to talk to at wyc? Also are their rulings class legal?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd suggest you try a PM to Steve Truax, who's user id here is hwy61sail. If he didn't write it, he can probably put you in contact with the person who did.

The Wayzata decision is thoughtful and well written, and I'd follow it if I were you, but I don't think you're going to get a guarantee that it won't change in the future. Even the courts reverse themselves occasionally. The Wayzata decision is the most authoritative decision available. If anyone would challenge your modifications, the Wayzata decision would support you, if you followed it. If you didn't follow it, you'd probably lose the challenge. When in doubt, I always follow the most authoritative guidance available.

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