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Tidal fill as a math function

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 11:45:37

Jim,

A couple of quick comments:

Don't let our comments get you down. Some told me how much I'd hate sailing the Delaware River, and that I'd either quit or move to "the Bay." But we've enjoyed it more than we expected. (We just drove down to Bohemia River a couple weeks ago to check it out and decided it would not be worth the trip moving our boat there.) Every one of us is in a different situation, and willing to make different compromises to be able to sail within our constraints of family, lifestyle, and cost.

So consider this a long-term proposition. If you don't like it, move somewhere else next year. If you're really miserable, bite the bullet and move somewhere else mid-season. (Can you negotiate for a monthly rent to see how it goes?)

Looking at the chart, it looks like you have a few miles of nice sailing out toward the inlet, but not sure how bad the currents, surf, and traffic get over there. You'll need to solicit some local knowledge for that.

The only other option I can think of is the lower Delaware Bay, which you discussed [url="http://www.sailnet.com/forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/79753-philadelphia-area-sailing-novice-25-sk.html#post786147"]over on Sailnet[/url] last October. I can't remember what the problem was with that. Too far? Bugs? Square chop?

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:18:15

Rick,
I'm still not 100% convinced that the lower Delaware, especially the area where we were looking, is completely out of the question. But, from all the feedback we received (man-eating bugs, seventy-five foot waves that come out of nowhere and whose edges are so steep as to be basically "square", thirty foot crocodiles that slip into the cabin and lie in wait for you to come aboard, etc.) we decided to try moving the boat down to Ocean City, and then take a few day trips (by car) over to Cape May to get a better feel for how the Delaware REALLY is. The distance wasn't bad - it's only a 20 minute ride from my in-law's over to that portion of the bay.

From what I recall as a kid, and I'm going back 20+ years, the northeastern portion of Great Egg Harbor Bay is pretty busy during the season, and there are LOTS of power boats. You're right, I'd have a good bit of depth there, and the ability to make a nice run, but I'm afraid I'll be too busy dodging power boats to be able to enjoy the sail. I'd rather worry about the depth than a collision.

The other comments about getting frustrated with sailing are duly noted, and have been a consideration all along. I'm keeping an open mind, and setting my expectations fairly low for this season, so I don't expect to be getting rid of the boat any time soon. If anything, the reason we'll get rid of her is that we just don't get to the shore enough this summer to justify having her there. But my wife has already committed to bringing her up to the Delaware River in 2013 if OC doesn't work this summer. I also think I could make a good case for moving her to Avalon in 2013 and sailing in the ocean (assuming our confidence level is appropriate), but the tidal swing through Townsend Inlet is pretty nasty and I would be afraid of trying to fight the resulting current while trying to dock, depending on the marina.

Edited by - JimGo on 02/10/2012 12:19:34

pfduffy
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:18:54

Jim - while I am familiar with the area, I've only sailed the Barnegat Bay (upper part - near Tom's River. I considered moving my boat closer to Ocean City but decided against it because of the skinny water. The channel I have to motor out of requires me to keep the keel up until I am on the Bay. I can tell you that on a day where there is some wind and boat wakes to deal with, the boat is very uncomfortable until the keel is lowered. I have not sailed my boat with the keel retracted more than a few turns if I bump a sandbar.

Have you considered Atlantic City? I have no actual knowledge, but it looks like a decent inlet to navigate.

Edited by - pfduffy on 02/10/2012 12:19:23

JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:23:52

Pat,
Thanks for the suggestion. AC isn't bad, but there isn't a lot of open, protected water there. The inlet is nice and wide, though! But, if I'm going to be ocean sailing, I'd just as soon move to Avalon if I can handle the current. Though, if AC doesn't have as much current, maybe that's a better choice.

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 12:50:40

[url="http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/press/great-egg-harbor-inlet-still-putting-boaters-at-risk-marina/article_3f87a1ec-5285-11e0-b515-001cc4c03286.html"]Great Egg Harbor Inlet still putting boaters at risk, marina owners say[/url]

On my previous boat, a swing keeler (not a C25), stability with the keel up was dramatically different than when it was fully lowered. If a boat coming from the other direction in the channel put up any kind of wake, the boat would lurch back and forth like there was no tomorrow. The only thing my wife hated more than heeling was encountering another boat in the channel.

Edited by - dlucier on 02/10/2012 13:03:55

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 02/10/2012 : 14:03:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 ...man-eating bugs, seventy-five foot waves that come out of nowhere and whose edges are so steep as to be basically "square", thirty foot crocodiles that slip into the cabin and lie in wait for you to come aboard, etc...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, that's Sailnet for you!

Edited by - on

Arlington
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Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 09:34:19

Jim I would get or borrow a little sailing dingy and go explore your bay. It looks like if you run aground you can easily get out and pull it off, yourself. You may want to wait for warmer water temps though. I'm sure the other local sailors will also be able to give you some yeas or nayes. If they all have skiffs with trolling motors, you can probably deduce that a C-25 may not be that practical. I admire your determination, nothing wrong with hoping this will work, and nothing wrong with getting advice here.

I am hoping to motor/sail the ICW some day, so your post and the replies have really been very helpful.
Doug

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Arlington
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Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 09:50:30

Sorry Jim, after reading the above link that Don Lucier posted, I may have been overly optimistic. What are the disadvantages of your current (old) slip?
Doug

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/11/2012 : 22:33:46

Doug,
I like your idea of taking a boat out into the bay to try it out. I'm not sure how practical that is, however, I know of at least 3 or 4 C25's that sail that bay, and I looked at 2 or 3 other boats that were in the 22'-25' range that also sail the bay, so I know it can be done.

The disadvantages of the current marina are its location, and the cost. The current slip is in Island Heights, NJ, about an hour and 45 minutes of where my in-laws have a place, and about an hour and forty-five minutes from our home (without traffic, easily 2.5+ with summer traffic). It's also about 2x the price of the marina we're considering. Other than that, it's beautiful and ideal (and I do mean that sincerely - it's a GREAT place, and I WISH it was closer, because it would be a "no-brainer" and ABSOLUTELY worth the extra cost). But it's not convenient to my home, nor is it convenient to my in-laws' condo (and we can't afford to buy a condo!), so it's really not an ideal location. I've tried to talk my in-laws into moving further north, but so far, that hasn't happened, and I think the odds of getting my in-laws to move up near the marina are pretty slim. So, I'm gonna have to find a place that's within a 30'ish minute drive of their condo, which puts me somewhere between Cape May and Atlantic City, NJ. My preference is a protected body of water, and Great Egg Harbor is the closest I'll get to a sailable body of water (believe it or not).

I previously read the article to which Don linked. It was written by the owner of Harbour Cove Marine Services, the services part of Harbour Cove Marina. I agree (I grew up on power boats in that same bay) the inlet is dangerous. I have no real intention of trying to run that inlet this season in a sailboat that barely makes 5kts under power, needs 3+ feet to avoid being grounded in an area that can shoal very quickly, and has an incredible amount of inertia. I'll need to be a lot more comfortable with both the boat and the inlet before I try that.

Here's the reality I'm facing. Barnegat bay would be wonderful, and offers great sailing. I could move off of Island Heights and head south, and maybe shave off 20-30 minutes of the ride from my in-laws' condo, but I'm still over an hour from their place. That means that a "quick" hour-long sail is a 3+ hour trip, at a minimum, and that's going to limit how often we head from the condo to the boat. In addition, moving the boat south (but still on Barnegat bay) would increase the travel time from my home, which also reduces the amount of time we'll actually sail.

By keeping the boat close to my in-laws, I also increase the likelihood of getting out on the water, because it means my wife gets to go visit with her parents, and my kids with their grandparents (I'm not complaining, either, I like my in-laws), which means we're more likely to go. We also have a close-by place to "crash" in the event the weather turns or something else happens and sailing isn't a possibility. Ocean City also has a very family-friendly boardwalk, and it's a regular "afternoon trip" for us when we're at the condo, so it's a very comfortable place for us to go.

I figure, realistically, I can count on about 15-20 days of sailing this season if we keep the boat in Ocean City. If I'm lucky, MAYBE I'll get a little more. If we keep the boat in Island Heights, I'd probably see that cut in half, and it might even be worse than that. With 2 kids who I WANT to be part of the experience, I'm going to be limited to 2-3 hours of time "on the water" no matter where I go. They are great boys and good at keeping themselves entertained, but they are still too young to fully enjoy the experience of sailing; they like to be more active. So, 3 hours is really the max I can ask of them. We have some ideas on how to make the sailing more fun and participatory for them this season, and maybe they will surprise me and enjoy it more, but I'm trying to keep my expectations in check. So, with a 3-hour maximum on the water time, the tide issue (hopefully) won't be too much of a factor, because I probably won't be out for more than the "sailable tide window". Thus, the tide becomes something that will have to go into the planning for any given day's sail, much like sailing on the Delaware River, where the direction you head depends (in part) on the direction of the tide. Is this an annoyance? Absolutely. I'd love to be able to just hop in and go, whenever I want. But that's not happening, and so far, the limitations that we're facing aren't dissuading my wife or me from trying Great Egg Harbor.

To sum it up, I think I basically have 3 options: 1) quit now, sell the boat, and find a smaller boat; 2) move the boat to Avalon and sail in the ocean; or 3) accept the shortcomings of Great Egg Harbor and sail there. I'm not inclined to quit yet without first giving something a try, so selling the boat is out. Moving the boat to Avalon and sailing in the ocean isn't a horrible prospect for me, although the inlet there (Townsend's inlet) has a very strong current. Of course, I'd probably be heading with the current most of the time, so it may not be much of a factor other than when docking, but I'd really rather get to know the boat and my abilities better before trying something like that. I've also read here that the swing keel isn't exactly the best choice in the ocean so I had hoped to get at least a season or two of bay sailing in under my belt with this boat before I tried to tackle the ocean. That leaves me with option 3, keeping the boat in Great Egg Harbor. I accept the fact that the marina may not be ideal, but I don't think the other marinas, on balance, will be THAT much better (and I hope I'm right!). I'd love to try someplace else, but so far the four marinas listed above are the only ones I've found that have enough depth at the dock to take sailboats (and some outright refuse to take sailboats). Harbour Cove was $3400 for the season, Graef's was $2800, and All Seasons was $2200 or so, if I recall correctly. Not only is this marina better priced, it puts me closer to the bay than the other marinas, which means I won't waste as much time in transit.

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/12/2012 : 16:44:59

Jim you are really doing some good research. With 5 to 7 similar sized boats it looks a lot more promising. I am wondering if your swing keel could give you a little more wiggle room? Being a foreigner to Great Egg Harbor the author of the article led me to believe that it was as treacherous as the day is long. But it sounds like the inlet is the most perilous place, and it is an area you can avoid. I think your other local C25's and similar boats could provide you a great deal of insight, being able to go out with them could be priceless. If you can get more good sailing in, then it will be easier to decide how close you want to be. Go for it!

A wise Father said, 'Son gather the facts before you make a decision, then don't look back'.
Doug

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JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/12/2012 : 17:56:51

Doug,
Thanks. That's the goal with this thread, to do a lot of fact finding. I appreciate EVERYONE's feedback. It all helps me make an informed decision. Like Rick said, we all have to find the "perfect" balance; this bay seems like about as good as I am going to get. The marina is another story; if I could find a better choice, I'd go for it. But so far, I can't.

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keeldad
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/13/2012 : 08:16:47

Jim,
I sail in Great Egg Bay because it's where I live. Granted it's not perfect but I'd rather have a boat close to me with less than perfect conditions than driving a long time for something closer to "perfect". I know the Great Egg Bay rather well because I also own a powerboat and have operated in there for many years but I've only sailed the Emery C for one season because I got frusturated with the bridge situation. I was stuck three times on the wrong side of the bridge the first season so I decided that I would wait until the bridges were finished before I put her back in. That took a year longer than was initially promised so I paid for a slip for the last 2 years that I didn't use. I keep the Emery C behind a private house on a lagoon between the airport and All Seasons Marina. I got very lucky with the location and price and I didn't want to risk losing the slip so now that the new bridges are almost complete I'm really looking forward to sailing this season. Like you, I'm new to this type of boat, only getting one season in before work, family and the bridge situation intruded on my enjoying and learning the boat. I WILL be in this season.
As far as your situation is concerned, In my humble opinion, I think you'll be fine. I had expressed my concern to you in a different thread about the water in and around the old MacMor Marina(that's what it was called when I kept my Eagle there)but you seem to have researched the issue pretty well. Once you get out in the channel it should be pretty good but that's where a swing keel is perfect for this type of sailing. It's a sandy bottom so if you touch, simply crank the keel up and sail/motor away. I'd stay out of Peck's Bay until you get a better feel for the area because it is pretty shallow. I don't go there because I don't know it. I stay in Ship Channel.
You are correct that the "Philadelphia Navy" gets pretty intense on summer weekends in Ship Channel behind Somers Point and OC but the OC Yacht Club holds their Friday Night races there so it's not totally devoid of sailing craft in the area. The Coast Guard moved the channel markers in the Great Egg Inlet last summer. I've been out there in a power boat and it's much better than it was. I haven't had the Emery C offshore yet but I plan on picking a nice day and getting out this summer. A friend of mine used to take his Cat25 out there on a regular basis and reported no problems (although he did have a long shaft outboard).
One of the other things that I like about the area is that even though it can get crowded on a summer weekend, if you happen to get into trouble, help is never too far away. I do recommend towing insurance though. I buy it every year through Boat US and it does provide peace of mind.

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/13/2012 : 08:38:59

John,
Thanks for the feedback. If/when you decide to make the trip "outside", I'd be happy to be part of your crew if there's room.

Edited by - on

Frank Law
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Response Posted - 02/13/2012 : 20:35:40

Jim--30 yrs ago I sailed a 14ftr In Great Egg bay just north of the parkway bridge and south of the causeway to O.C. ..That area is maybe 1.5 miles long and about 3/4 mile wide and had enough water to sail our little boat 3' draft .. When the wind is out of the north or south you will do a lot of tacking .. It may take you 15-20 minutes to get there motoring .. I used to put our boat in at a ramp near the Tuckahoe Inn between the two bridges .
Frank Law
"About Time"
3519
sr , swk .

Edited by - on

JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/13/2012 : 20:46:05

Thanks Frank! Where do you sail now?

By the way, you live only about an hour from me, and almost due West. I'm over near Lansdale.

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 12:24:09

John (Keeldad) - the marina is now going by Sunset Bay Marina.

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keeldad
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 14:10:58

Jim, How do you plan on getting the boat in the water there? I drive past the place almost every day but I don't see the old lifting tractor that they used to get boats in and out. Are you planning on sailing it down or trailering it to a ramp/marina nearby?

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/16/2012 : 20:05:12

John,
The current plan is to sail it down. If I can find a trailer between now and launch day, that will be another story.

Edited by - on

Frank Law
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Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 10:17:19

Jimgo--Sorry for the delay , we have a camper just off the Sassafras River in Md. "About Time" swings on a Mooring in a creek . We mostly day sail in the Sassafras , which is a beautiful river . We are about 20 miles south of Elkton Md.

Frank Law
"About Time"
1983 # 3519
SWK , SR

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 10:20:23

Frank,
Thanks for the reply. When I was looking for boats, I was down in that area - very pretty. Right now, my family is beach-oriented, with boating second. If the priorites were in the other direction, and if we didn't have family with places at the NJ shore, I'd have been pushing hard to be down in that area. Enjoy!

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Frank Law
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Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 10:25:40

Jimgo--- Another thought ,, Rereading your comment about 16-17 sailing days per summer---Remember If you have hi tide one weekend the next weekend it will be pretty Low

Frank Law
"About Time"
1983 #3519
SWK , SR

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 10:37:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 John,
The current plan is to sail it down. If I can find a trailer between now and launch day, that will be another story.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm not familiar with the route. Does this mean you'll be sailing through the inlet to the bay?

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JimGo
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Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 10:42:23

Not if I can help it, John. The ICW goes all the way from Barnegat Bay to Cape May, and I plan on going through the ICW. That should keep me out of the inlet.

I looked into the route last year, and it looked like I should be OK except for a few bridges, which we'll have to have opened. Someone on Sailnet mentioned that bridges break - I'll be double-checking the repair status before we leave, and keeping the A-frame at the ready just in case (not my ideal solution, but...). I picked up a tiller tamer, and will be double-checking the anchors before I head out, too.

Edited by - JimGo on 02/17/2012 10:45:21

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/17/2012 : 11:56:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Law
 Jimgo--Sorry for the delay , we have a camper just off the Sassafras River in Md. "About Time" swings on a Mooring in a creek . We mostly day sail in the Sassafras , which is a beautiful river . We are about 20 miles south of Elkton Md.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've sailed my Phantom on the Sassafras before (Georgetown public ramp to Ordinary Point and back), and planned to do a cruise through the canal to Turner Creek last summer, but that turned out to be the week of Hurricane Irene.

I'd love to consider moving Take Five down there as some point, but I was concerned about a 1 hour motor each way to get to the Bay. Are you able to actually sail in the river, or are the breezes too swirly with the twists and turns?

Edited by - TakeFive on 02/17/2012 11:56:52

keeldad
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Response Posted - 02/21/2012 : 11:40:43

Jim, I'm familiar with most of the bridges between Atlantic City and Somers Point. I don't generally sail under all of them but I do take my Mako under most and here's what I can tell you. I assume the first bridge you will deal with is the fixed RT 72 bridge onto LBI. I don't have a chart with me right now and I've never been under that bridge so I can only assume that you will have enough clearance. After that the next bridge you will encounter is the RT30 drawbridge into AC. I've never seen it in action but I assume it gets a fair amount of large boat traffic given the location. Once you're through that one, the next one you will encounter is the swinging RR bridge going into AC. That bridge is remote operating and I have heard stories of captains having trouble getting it opened. They will not open it if a train is due soon. Immediately after that is the AC Expressway fixed bridge. Check your chart. I assume it is high enough but I've never sailed under it. The next one is the RT40/Albany Ave drawbridge. I haven't heard anything about problems with this bridge. After that you will come across the Dorset Ave. drawbridge. I haven't heard anything good or bad about it so I assume it works as advertised. Following the ICW south you'll next come to the Margate drawbridge. This is privately owned and operated. I do sail through this bridge twice a year because the Emery C's winter home is nearby. I've never had a problem with this one. After the Margate Bridge DO NOT attempt to go through the fixed bridge you see directly ahead. This is the Longport Bridge and although it visually might appear to be high enough, the charts indicate otherwise. The ICW takes a jog to the West just before you get to this bridge and it's clearly marked. A bit further down the ICW takes a southerly jog (again, clearly marked) and the next bridge you will see is the fixed Delores Cooper Bridge. This bridge has plenty of clearance for you. Stay between the channel markers before this one because the channel takes a jog to the west and hugs the bank before you get there. After clearing the Delores Cooper, you'll be pointing towards OC. There is a fixed daymarker that you should head for before picking up the ICW bouys again. At that point, you are safely in Ship Channel and finished with all bridge opernings. The old RT54 (9th St) drawbridge on the Somers Point side has been removed, the GSP bridge has enough clearance and the Beesley's Point drawbridge is permanently in the open position. You should be home free at that point. Whew!
The RT30, RT40 and Dorset Ave bridges only open at fixed times and I don't remember what they are. I know the Margate bridge opens on request and I believe the RR bridge does as well but I'd check. Quite frankly, If I were you, I'd either find a way to trailer it or pay a boat moving service to do it for you OR make the journey south with the mast down. Someone who has a powerboat with an effective reverse and/or twin screws can manuver while waiting for an opening but I can tell you from experience that the Emery C does not like to back up. Bridge openings, tricky currents, limited manuverability, unfamiliarity with the boat and ignorant, inconsiderant boaters combined with tidal issues might make your first extended trip something other than totally pleasant.

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