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BUTANE space heater

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/20/2012 : 14:02:24

Holy moley - I think I'm in heaven. Went to a new outdoors store in town the other day and they have butane space heaters. http://www.sail.ca/en/catalogue/camping/heaters/42/infrared-heater-bdn-100/

This means I no longer need naptha or propane or alcohol on the boat. I now have compact cooking, heating and loighting all with butane. One fuel type, one interchangeable container, and everythign works - plus the heater doubles as a coffee warmer - apparently it will warm (but not boil) a pot of water.

I can now get rid of my propane powered catalytic heater.

Ad before you get all uppity, yes I Make sure there is makeup air and no I don't seal the boat shut.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2012 : 15:10:31

Uppity, uppity, uppity!!! LOL
Hey, seriously, it sounds like a pretty good deal, especially consolidating fuel types. And the heater looks like it is small enough that it would not overpower the cabin.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2012 : 20:08:28

Wow, that's a great size!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 01:05:11

Do you not use your boat when it's fairly cold? My understanding is that butane doesn't work very well as you get closer to zero C (32 f)?

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 07:05:42

Looks good, pretty nice price too! But that's a valid question about how butane reacts to cold~

"The boiling point of Butane is approximately -0.5 C at sea level (This boiling point will drop with an increase in altitude given the reduced pressure). This means that as the lighter nears freezing less gas will be vaporized inside of the cartridge and will make it hard to light".

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 08:14:10

...but it would seem if you start the heater before the temperature drops too far, it'll take care of itself. I think of these things as nice for a 50 degree (F) night, not for January in Ontario. Reviews on Amazon say it doesn't work below 40F.

Chris, do you have a CO detector on board?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/21/2012 08:29:17

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 10:26:35

well, um, if its below freezing, the water isn't very navigable. ;)

Honestly though, the point of te heater is so we don't freeze. Most folks start feeling uncomfortable around 5Â°C (40Â°F) so I think we'd have it on before it got that cold. An old winter camping tricjk is to put a fuel cell in your sleeping bag at your feet. Makes the stove light faster in the morning. (I also stuffed my gloves, socks and underwear down there, and sometimes the next day's clothes. Moisture could be a issue, but at least everything was warm to put on in the morning.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 10:27:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 
Chris, do you have a CO detector on board?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It would be easier to lie than tell the truth on this one - is there a battery operated CO detector out there? Even awesomer - is there a butane powered CO detector?

Edited by - Prospector on 01/21/2012 10:28:19

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 10:45:43

WM has two that run off your 12V system. I don't know the amperage.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 11:06:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">is there a battery operated CO detector out there?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Both Lowes and Home Depot sell battery powered carbon monoxide detectors. I installed a battery powered carbon monoxide detector under the bottom step on my boat last year, it's still working. But now that you mentioned it, I think I'll replace the batteries now.

Edited by - Davy J on 01/21/2012 11:17:30

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 11:38:57

Pretty sure we picked up our CO detector at Lowes for around $30 or so. It runs off of a 9 volt battery, so it was easy to place it up on the port bulkhead, about a foot from ceiling. I remember the placement instructions being fairly specific. We've got both our propane stove as well as the Mr. Buddy heater.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 16:51:47

I love how one good idea begets another on here. thanks for te tips guys, I'll keep an eye out next time I'm in a box store (which isn't often)

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5372 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2012 : 18:19:41

David (Sirius) -
CO is heavier than air, so by the time it fills the cabin up to a foot below the ceiling, I'd imagine you'd be in difficult straights. In my home, the CO detector is located at 18" from the floor.
Also, most CO detectors plug in for their main source of power. The 9V battery is used as powerfail protection, so if the power goes out, it will still work for a few days or a week until power's restored.
I don't believe the 9V battery is intended for long-term use.

Edited by - on

delliottg
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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2012 : 03:17:52

Bruce,
Thanks for the concern. The detector (Kidde KN-COPP-B) is specifically designed to run on batteries, and the installation instructions specify that it should be "at eye level".

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2012 : 05:34:43

Carbon monoxide (CO), also called carbonous oxide, is a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas that is slightly lighter than air.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2012 : 07:31:46

"Air" has a molecular weight that averages out to about 30. CO is 28. That's similar to the difference between the O2 and N2 in air, which don't settle apart in our cabins. (By comparison, gasoline vapor is 114, and we know it settles.) The warmer air that contains the CO coming off a heater will rise, and then cool and mix with the surrounding air.

I won't translate this into a recommendation--draw your own conclusion.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/22/2012 07:34:33

Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2012 : 22:39:05

Sorry to rain on your parade, as a firefighter, I can share with you that there is not a practical way to use a heater with an open flame without producing CO as a product of incomplete combustion. Within the small confined space of a boat cabin, such as that of the C25, most people just won’t leave a hatch or the companionway open to the cold – in order to fire up a heater. When you are already cold, it just seems to be illogical.

Your blood has an affinity for odorless and colorless carbon monoxide. CO is readily absorbed by your blood and it prevents the blood from absorbing oxygen. So when you take in a breath of air, laden with even small amounts of CO, you are more susceptible to carbon monoxide poisoning. In the fire service these are the people that receive a ride to morgue or the ER, if they survive. It would be wise to not only have a carbon monoxide detector, but to also be familiar with the symptoms of CO Poisoning if you want to have one of these small heaters in your boat.

CO poisoning can be confused with flu symptoms, food poisoning and other illnesses. Some symptoms include shortness of breath, nausea, dizziness, light headedness or headaches. High levels of CO can be fatal, causing death within minutes.

Symptoms for an average, healthy adult:

• 50 ppm: No adverse effects with 8 hours of exposure.
• 200 ppm: Mild headache after 2-3 hours of exposure.
• 400 ppm: Headache and nausea after 1-2 hours of exposure.
• 800 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 45 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,000 ppm: Loss of consciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,600 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 20 minutes of exposure.
• 3,200 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 5-10 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 30 minutes of exposure.
• 6,400 ppm: Headache and dizziness after 1-2 minutes; unconsciousness and danger of death after 10-15 minutes of exposure.
• 12,800 ppm: Immediate physiological effects, unconsciousness and danger of death after 1-3 minutes of exposure.
Source: NFPA's Fire Protection Handbook, 20th Edition.

Doug

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 07:11:23

Another symptom that I read about, from a sorry event in my area, is disorientation and confusion. The deceased victims in a home had been doing all sorts of totally irrational things for unknown numbers of hours before they died. Knowing the symptoms might not be enough if you no longer know anthing.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 07:26:37

propane, when used properly is VERY safe. Store bottles not in use in the starboard seat locker, at least that is what I did on my '82... Disconnecting bottled topsides eliminates all issues associated with propane and gravity. The bilge on a C25 is not that big, trust me, you will smell it long before you have enough in there to cause an explosion. Spray WD-40 on every propane bottle and put the cap back on. Keeps the valve lubed which is your biggest concern. I've had rusted ones spew and had to toss it overboard.

CO detectors - I like mid hull for placement, but to be honest, on a C25 it's a little overkill - pun intended. You should not have to run it all night ever. Warm the cabin, climb into bed, you are done. Now if you are cruising, that is different. I have a diesel heater and have run it 24/7 for almost 4 days once before a storm broke. IF, you need to leave it running overnight, then you definately need a CO detector. Should have one anyways, BUT prevention is the cure always make sure there is some ventilation going on no matter what the form of heat.

BTW - a lot of cruisers sans heat swear by the flower pot over the stove with a fan blowing on it...

sten

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 07:37:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlington
 Sorry to rain on your parade, as a firefighter, I can share with you that there is not a practical way to use a heater with an open flame without producing CO as a product of incomplete combustion. Within the small confined space of a boat cabin, such as that of the C25, most people just won’t leave a hatch or the companionway open to the cold – in order to fire up a heater. When you are already cold, it just seems to be illogical.

Your blood has an affinity for odorless and colorless carbon monoxide. CO is readily absorbed by your blood and it prevents the blood from absorbing oxygen. So when you take in a breath of air, laden with even small amounts of CO, you are more susceptible to carbon monoxide poisoning. In the fire service these are the people that receive a ride to morgue or the ER, if they survive. It would be wise to not only have a carbon monoxide detector, but to also be familiar with the symptoms of CO Poisoning if you want to have one of these small heaters in your boat.

CO poisoning can be confused with flu symptoms, food poisoning and other illnesses. Some symptoms include shortness of breath, nausea, dizziness, light headedness or headaches. High levels of CO can be fatal, causing death within minutes.

Symptoms for an average, healthy adult:

• 50 ppm: No adverse effects with 8 hours of exposure.
• 200 ppm: Mild headache after 2-3 hours of exposure.
• 400 ppm: Headache and nausea after 1-2 hours of exposure.
• 800 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 45 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,000 ppm: Loss of consciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,600 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 20 minutes of exposure.
• 3,200 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 5-10 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 30 minutes of exposure.
• 6,400 ppm: Headache and dizziness after 1-2 minutes; unconsciousness and danger of death after 10-15 minutes of exposure.
• 12,800 ppm: Immediate physiological effects, unconsciousness and danger of death after 1-3 minutes of exposure.
Source: NFPA's Fire Protection Handbook, 20th Edition.

Doug

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A great post Doug, thanks. Our boat is so full of airholes, I figured the CO would find its way out, and thus far have not had issues, but as posted below, we usually just heat the cabin in the pre-bedtime hour(s), about 5 times a year.

Previous heat devices have included:
- bulkhead mounted oil lantern - threw a surprising amount of heat, but we repeatedly broke the globe, and were afraid of the kids knocking it off the wall. We have removed the lantern but left the gimbal.
- A butane lantern on the table or where the stove used to be. Throws a lot of heat and light, and actually works pretty well, but when the kids are put to bed they won't go to sleep with the lights on.
- when plugged in we use an electric space heater - which works well, but the fan vibrations through the hull keep everyone awake.

Being that we are geared up for winter camping, cold weather sleeping is more about the 5 minutes between dressed and PJ's than it is about keeping warm while asleep. I do know some folks though who maintain that by keeping the hull warm you reduce condensation in the boat, making it a healthier environment. I'm not really worried about that.

I'm thinking I'll mount a CO detector in the footwell under the Vee berth, or maybe inside teh hanging locker since those spots likely has the least air circulation, are closest to where we sleep, and would be a good indicator of CO buildup.

Edit to add - At the risk that all of you think we completely stupid, we DO make sure that there is some ventilation when a non-electric heater is going. Usually we will crack the Vee-berth hatch, and let it rest in the "slightly open" position, held up by letting the screws rest on the lip of gasket, and we do not block the air holes in the hatchboards while the heater is running. If it is warm enough for Skeetoes though, we seal everything up at bedtime and go on a bughunt before turnming off the heaters and turning in for the night. Even then though, the hatchboard slits are only covered by a Tee-shirt or towel draped over them.

Edited by - Prospector on 01/23/2012 07:46:57

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 07:48:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlington
 Sorry to rain on your parade, as a firefighter, I can share with you that there is not a practical way to use a heater with an open flame without producing CO as a product of incomplete combustion. Within the small confined space of a boat cabin, such as that of the C25, most people just won’t leave a hatch or the companionway open to the cold – in order to fire up a heater. When you are already cold, it just seems to be illogical.

Your blood has an affinity for odorless and colorless carbon monoxide. CO is readily absorbed by your blood and it prevents the blood from absorbing oxygen. So when you take in a breath of air, laden with even small amounts of CO, you are more susceptible to carbon monoxide poisoning. In the fire service these are the people that receive a ride to morgue or the ER, if they survive. It would be wise to not only have a carbon monoxide detector, but to also be familiar with the symptoms of CO Poisoning if you want to have one of these small heaters in your boat.

CO poisoning can be confused with flu symptoms, food poisoning and other illnesses. Some symptoms include shortness of breath, nausea, dizziness, light headedness or headaches. High levels of CO can be fatal, causing death within minutes.

Symptoms for an average, healthy adult:

• 50 ppm: No adverse effects with 8 hours of exposure.
• 200 ppm: Mild headache after 2-3 hours of exposure.
• 400 ppm: Headache and nausea after 1-2 hours of exposure.
• 800 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 45 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,000 ppm: Loss of consciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,600 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 20 minutes of exposure.
• 3,200 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 5-10 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 30 minutes of exposure.
• 6,400 ppm: Headache and dizziness after 1-2 minutes; unconsciousness and danger of death after 10-15 minutes of exposure.
• 12,800 ppm: Immediate physiological effects, unconsciousness and danger of death after 1-3 minutes of exposure.
Source: NFPA's Fire Protection Handbook, 20th Edition.

Doug

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, all of that is true. BUT, CO when not vented properly is the problem, not the source of heat. Vessel heating systems have been install on Pacific Seacraft Flicka's with excellent results. that's a 20' boat. The way a diesel heater works is that you use papertowel to get the initial fire going, add airflow with the built in internal fan which blows the smoke out thru the Charley Noble - smoke stack/chimney for a boat. Screws in when needed, 2.5 inch cover when not in use... Anyway, once the "fireplace" has been heated, the natural draft of the air fueling the fire from below and drawing thru the vessel will fuel the fire such that you do not need to use the blower fan anymore, Voile! heat, blow a fan across it and you can stay at 67 degrees while it is 22 outside with a windchill of 15. Dont's ask me how I know...

Propane works similarly, although it is known to cause condensation inside the cabin which is annoying. Drip, Drip. They do make propane "fireplaces" which are almost identical to the diesel ones, just no papertowel and no soot on deck if you don't have the balance between air flow and heat and diesel worked out right.

By ABYC standards, all vessels should have dorades if they are to run heat, or if on the hook, crack the forward hatch and leave it at that depending on wind/flow thru/ common sense... I used one of those My Buddy heaters on my C25 for years. 5 hours on a $1.99 bottle depending on where you buy them. Cheapest solution and mega BTU's for the dollar.

Prudence is required. Stay warm at your own risk...

sten

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 12:14:09

Just asking, since we don't overnight on the boat when it is cold enough to require a heater, but would a solar powered exhaust vent over the v-berth running 24/7 and the air openings in the main hatch (3 slits in the top board and gaps at the top corners) for air intake be enough to remove any CO buildup?
BTW, an 8x10 sunshade (such as a tarp made from sunbrella type fabric) secured to the stanchion bases near the mast forward and to the forward-most stern rail supports aft will cover the main hatch sufficiently that you could leave the top board out and have plenty of ventilation with very little wind effect.

Edited by - dmpilc on 01/23/2012 12:21:02

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 12:51:31

We have the solar vent David, adn it does its part, but all you need is to see the condensation in the hull to know air movement could be better.

As for teh sunshade - we have done that before, and it works well on the hook. If you are at a dock though, you could have your stern facing the wind and the tarp funneling it in. We have done that before, and you can smell the gas from the stove down below with someone cooking in the cockpit. A bad scene.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2012 : 21:07:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ...would a solar powered exhaust vent over the v-berth running 24/7 and the air openings in the main hatch (3 slits in the top board and gaps at the top corners) for air intake be enough to remove any CO buildup?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Too many variables--especially the CO output of your heater, stove, or whatever. The only definitive measures are from a detector, or when they find you dead. Do not gamble with this stuff.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2012 : 07:16:05

<< Do not gamble with this stuff. >>

Q: Has anyone been found dead on a sailboat?

Q: Has anyone seen readings from any of the digital devices?

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2012 : 22:49:24

IMO Arlington is right. I'm not a firefighter but I have 7 years in EMS on an ambulance and I also think it's a bad idea to use butane or propane to heat the cabin with a portable heater. You may be ok with some of the ventilation methods mentioned in this thread but if not you get very sick or die. With not much warning. I think it's foolish to think you will be able to self diagnose CO poisoning in time to save yourself (most people write it off as something else until it's too late), and to rely on a detector as your primary protection doesn't cut it. The detector is the backup. The primary protection is prevention. Which means do what you can to keep CO out of the cabin to start with... I'm just sharing my opinion for whatever it's worth, I don't really feel like debating the issue. The people that ignore the advice of seasoned professionals like Arlington the more job security for me! ;)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlington
 Sorry to rain on your parade, as a firefighter, I can share with you that there is not a practical way to use a heater with an open flame without producing CO as a product of incomplete combustion. Within the small confined space of a boat cabin, such as that of the C25, most people just won’t leave a hatch or the companionway open to the cold – in order to fire up a heater. When you are already cold, it just seems to be illogical.

Your blood has an affinity for odorless and colorless carbon monoxide. CO is readily absorbed by your blood and it prevents the blood from absorbing oxygen. So when you take in a breath of air, laden with even small amounts of CO, you are more susceptible to carbon monoxide poisoning. In the fire service these are the people that receive a ride to morgue or the ER, if they survive. It would be wise to not only have a carbon monoxide detector, but to also be familiar with the symptoms of CO Poisoning if you want to have one of these small heaters in your boat.

CO poisoning can be confused with flu symptoms, food poisoning and other illnesses. Some symptoms include shortness of breath, nausea, dizziness, light headedness or headaches. High levels of CO can be fatal, causing death within minutes.

Symptoms for an average, healthy adult:

• 50 ppm: No adverse effects with 8 hours of exposure.
• 200 ppm: Mild headache after 2-3 hours of exposure.
• 400 ppm: Headache and nausea after 1-2 hours of exposure.
• 800 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 45 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,000 ppm: Loss of consciousness after 1 hour of exposure.
• 1,600 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 20 minutes of exposure.
• 3,200 ppm: Headache, nausea, and dizziness after 5-10 minutes; collapse and unconsciousness after 30 minutes of exposure.
• 6,400 ppm: Headache and dizziness after 1-2 minutes; unconsciousness and danger of death after 10-15 minutes of exposure.
• 12,800 ppm: Immediate physiological effects, unconsciousness and danger of death after 1-3 minutes of exposure.
Source: NFPA's Fire Protection Handbook, 20th Edition.

Doug

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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