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BUTANE space heater

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 05:00:50

word

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 07:13:49

Really kids? I mean a lot of boats have heating systems which carry the same risks as a portable heater. Not to start a pissing contest here, but if you really wanted to be safe you would A. not go sailing and stay home, or B. buy a better boat than a C25 in the first place... All of this is calculated risk. If caught in bad weather and your engine is cavitating and...? You are in deep ***. I've been there...

Calculated risk is inherent in the art of sailing/cruising. How many have died? Not that many. Again, common sense rules. I have an alarm. It is a backup for common sense. But I and so many of my fellow cruisers have used below decks combustion heat sources that I refuse to accept the paranoia.

sten

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 13:20:53

Of course you're trying to start a pissing contest! "Really kids" is good bait, you drew me in... Mostly because your logic is flawed and I think this could really save lives.

I'm not saying below deck combustion heat sources are a bad idea, I'm saying that the risks associated with portable devices of that type are much greater than those associated with fixed devices that have proper permanent ventilation. Even those devices have risks but they are less than the portable devices.

I'm also not speaking in nearly the absolute terms you portray. Of course there is relative risk involved with all decisions. In my opinion the relative risk (death) to the reward (some temporary heat) do not justify the use of a portable combustion heater given the degree of increased danger. CO is invisible, tasteless, and it can be hard to identify symptoms until it is too late. Not good stuff to mess with when it can be avoided...

Detectors are far from failsafe, especially the portable kind. Not only do they have to function correctly (battery, etc) but they have to be in the area where CO is present AND detect the gas early enough to prevent effects on the human occupants.

A cavitating engine on a sailboat (emphasis on sail) is nothing at all like being in a cabin while a difficult to detect poisonous gas accumulates due to an easily preventable action. Seriously Sten, it's apples and oranges. Even in bad weather...

As for how many have died or become seriously ill due to CO poisoning from portable heaters? I think you would be stunned at the numbers. Especially if you include RVs, people camping in tents, and people with small living spaces (studio apartments etc). Even here in warm sunny San Diego there are a surprising number of these calls. And there's no ambulance when you're out to sea... The fact that there may not be a huge (or geographically concentrated) number of deaths due to use of portable combustion heaters on boats does not mean they are safe by any means. It could just as easily mean most people have the common sense not to use them below decks in a small enclosed cabin.

Portable combustion heaters produce CO. CO in small poorly ventilated spaces is a deadly combination. C25 cabins are small poorly ventilated spaces. You're right, it is a calculated risk. Go for it, use your heater. You probably won't die or get sick or die from the CO you put in your cabin. As for me, I'll wear an extra blanket and know I won't...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Really kids? I mean a lot of boats have heating systems which carry the same risks as a portable heater. Not to start a pissing contest here, but if you really wanted to be safe you would A. not go sailing and stay home, or B. buy a better boat than a C25 in the first place... All of this is calculated risk. If caught in bad weather and your engine is cavitating and...? You are in deep ***. I've been there...

Calculated risk is inherent in the art of sailing/cruising. How many have died? Not that many. Again, common sense rules. I have an alarm. It is a backup for common sense. But I and so many of my fellow cruisers have used below decks combustion heat sources that I refuse to accept the paranoia.

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 14:32:09

<< Really kids? >>

No not really.. just my public persona. "Just the facts Mam" It would be great to run a digital meter and look at the levels.

I have a problem as this cannot interfere with work, so I often cant read long posts till later. I call it the short little attention span theatre.. gotta patient waiting now.

Thanks sten.. I loved it..

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 14:37:09

Now I GOTTA get one of those heaters, AND a video camera. Since the boat is parked in teh backyard it would be easy to turn on teh heater, seal up the cabin, and let the camera run. Come back in 3 or 4 hours and see how much the CO levels rose.

The next day I could repeat the process with the cabin set up in our usual sleeping with a heater arrangement.

I need to apply for a research subsidy.

Edited by - Prospector on 01/25/2012 14:38:31

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 14:49:20

Sten--of all the people you've actually known, have any of them died from falling off a sailboat? If not, why clip in or wear a PFD? After all, sailing is inherently risky--just go for it. All those stories are statistically insignificant. Right?

Have you actually known anyone who died in a car due to not wearing a seat belt? If not, why wear one--driving is risky too. Lots of people don't wear belts and very few of them die... Right?

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 15:14:35

Great idea! It will show you how much CO is produced by a properly working portable heater with complete combustion on a stationary platform in a non-marine environment. That's useful data, the world will thank you as they bask in warmth!

As a reminder (seems like I have to say this over and over) I am not saying they WILL make you sick or kill you, I'm saying that in my opinion the risk of death or serious illness does not outweigh the reward of some heat. Especially when there are alternative ways to achieve that goal.

Here, do some homework:
http://www.cdc.gov/co/faqs.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning#Causes
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/466.html

If after reading these you still feel it's a good idea to use a portable butane/propane burning space heater inside a small enclosed space then vaya con dios...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Now I GOTTA get one of those heaters, AND a video camera. Since the boat is parked in teh backyard it would be easy to turn on teh heater, seal up the cabin, and let the camera run. Come back in 3 or 4 hours and see how much the CO levels rose.

The next day I could repeat the process with the cabin set up in our usual sleeping with a heater arrangement.

I need to apply for a research subsidy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 19:27:28

I agree with Ryan and some others, why risk it? If you enjoy going out when it's cold add a couple of layers of clothing or some extra blankets and be warm and sleep peacefully without having to "worry" whether you're going to wake up or not.

So far our conversation has assumed the heater is working properly. What if it malfunctions during the night and starts producing even higher amounts of CO than normal?

Seriously ponder this while you're going to sleep tonight. What if YOU wake up but your wife/significant other or one of the kids don't. How's that going to feel for the next 20 - 40 years? Will you feel all "warm" and fuzzy knowing you killed someone in your family by taking a risk with a heater that produces CO?

Edited by - GaryB on 01/25/2012 19:36:32

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 20:37:20

OK, so if heat is desirable and propane/butane are out, what's a viable option in a C25? Electric?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 20:45:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 OK, so if heat is desirable and propane/butane are out, what's a viable option in a C25? Electric?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Works great at the dock!

I use a small electric ceramic heater while awake and a sleeping bag when it's time to sleep. I set the timer on the heater so it shuts off after 30 minutes. This gets me in the sleeping bag and asleep for a few minutes before it shuts off.

This setup works great down to about 40 degrees. Any colder than that and I stay at home.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/25/2012 : 23:02:07

In my opinion combustible heaters may be an acceptable risk if they are the permanently installed kind with fixed ventilation systems etc. Otherwise we use an electric heater for a short while before going to bed but we always shut it down before going to sleep. We've used this down to mid 40s. We find this model works well, especially in our small cabins:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=98976& catalogId=10001& langId=-1& storeId=11151& storeNum=50667& subdeptNum=50668& classNum=50671

That said, more often than not we just put on an extra layer and some slippers. We recently did a week trip to Catalina Island and only used the heater one or two nights for a few hours.

We also find, and this may be in our imagination, that when we close the window curtains the cabin seems to retain a lot more heat.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 OK, so if heat is desirable and propane/butane are out, what's a viable option in a C25? Electric?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 04:29:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ryan L
 In my opinion combustible heaters may be an acceptable risk if they are the permanently installed kind with fixed ventilation systems etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well there goes my alternate plan to re-route the exhaust from the OB to heat the cabin.

In all seriousness though, thanks to everyone who offered input here. Its good having folks around who care, and being familiar with the outfall of bad decisions, I'll have to tink hard about what I do with the info.

I would like to do the camera on the sensor thing though. Maybe I can borrow a video camera. Run it now (really cold) and on a night when I would actually be on the water, and see what the readings look like.

I also think its kinda funny that we got all tied in knots about asphyxiation, but no one mentioned the risk of burning down the boat.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 07:52:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...I also think its kinda funny that we got all tied in knots about asphyxiation, but no one mentioned the risk of burning down the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If the boat catches fire, you'll likely know it's happening--it might be a terrible surprise, but you'll know. CO doesn't let you know--it just quietly turns sleep into death. You don't get "out of breath," as with CO2--you just fade away. If you are fortunate enough to be awakened, you might be brain-damaged forever.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/26/2012 07:55:01

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 08:14:46

I won't get into how fast teh fumes from burning FG would overcome you, but I think the firefighters here might have a decent idea. One of my great fears sleeping onboard with the kids is that if a fire broke out on board, by the time those of us sleeping in teh Vee berth crawled out the fore hatch (Mom, Dad, Baby) the kids in the back would be pretty toasty. I don't know if the 14 yr old and 3 yr old would have the wherewithal to get themselves out. I suspect they would get panicky and not know what to do.

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Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 09:08:49

Bingo

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...I also think its kinda funny that we got all tied in knots about asphyxiation, but no one mentioned the risk of burning down the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If the boat catches fire, you'll likely know it's happening--it might be a terrible surprise, but you'll know. CO doesn't let you know--it just quietly turns sleep into death. You don't get "out of breath," as with CO2--you just fade away. If you are fortunate enough to be awakened, you might be brain-damaged forever.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 10:14:53

Chris, if you've got an iPhone (or probably an android), you can download a free app called "GorillaCam" that'll let you take time lapse photos with it. Set it up to take a photo of the sensor every 10-15 minutes over several hours of the heater running and see what it says. Just be super careful when retrieving it. I'm curious to know the result of the experiment.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 10:50:29

In all seriousness you guys see the main flaws of this "experiment" right?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 Chris, if you've got an iPhone (or probably an android), you can download a free app called "GorillaCam" that'll let you take time lapse photos with it. Set it up to take a photo of the sensor every 10-15 minutes over several hours of the heater running and see what it says. Just be super careful when retrieving it. I'm curious to know the result of the experiment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 13:54:44

In all seriousness Ryan, I don't.

The boat is wrapped in a tarp, pretty much sealed up right now. I have a butane and a propane catalytic heater. I have a CO detector that will get the readings safely with me not being there via the camera. When its time to retrieve the camera, I open the boat and run a fan for a while before going in to get the data. All's well. Don't make me put on the enclosed space gear and have a safety man on a derrick.

Where are the flaws? Are you talking safety related or controlled environment related or faulty heater related?

Edited by - on

Ryan L
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Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 19:32:37

I just re-read my message. Sorry if it conveyed any sense of disrespect, that was not my intention. I was on the way out the door and wrote it without much thought as to how it might read.

To answer your question the problem is that the methodology you propose is n=1 meaning only one sample. Basically what you will be determining is what levels of CO are detected from that particular burner under those particular conditions.

CO results from combustion but especially from incomplete combustion such as may result in a "dirty" burner or one that is otherwise not operating optimally. If the burner you use for your test is in top working order you may not detect much (or any) CO yet if you were to test 100 units you would likely find that a certain percentage of those do show CO.

On the other hand, if your test does show CO that doesn't mean all burners produce CO. It could be that out of 100 burners only yours produces CO.

Then you must also do enough samples of a "control" setting. For example, the exact same set up, including a statistically relevant number of burners, but the burners are turned off.

This is important to help determine the direct relationship (or evidence that more strongly indicates the possibility of direct relationship) between the burner and CO. For example, imagine if you were measuring temperature instead of CO and you were using a blinking light instead of a burner. If you started the experiment early morning on a clear summer day there's a pretty good bet the temperature will rise. Is it due to the blinking light? Only way to get more evidence of that would be to run a set without the blinking light and compare results...

For your test questions to consider (and control for) may include:
- Did the burner produce the CO or was it from a different source?
- Does the ambient atmosphere have an impact on levels CO production?
- Does the placement of the sensor impact readings?
- Does motion have an effect on production of CO from a burner? (for example a rocking boat)
- Does ambient salinity have an effect?
- How about age of fuel?
- ...intensity selected?
- ...placement of burner in cabin?
- ...ventilation?
- ...etc.

Most of all the problem is that you're only talking about running a sample of one, and then only one or two time. Doesn't tell you anything definitive either way regardless of the result.

Luckily for us these experiments have been done and while I can't cite the specific papers right now the results are universally accepted and are the reason (along with the deaths and illnesses) that every single relevant agency (public and private), manufacturer, fire department, medical authority, etc ALL say it's a really bad idea to use a propane/butane burner in a small space like a C25 cabin, especially with poor ventilation.

In fact, the only place you will find anyone suggesting it may be a good idea will be on a post here or there in a forum like this...

All that said, I think the coolest part of this would be seeing how the camera app works! :)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 In all seriousness Ryan, I don't.

The boat is wrapped in a tarp, pretty much sealed up right now. I have a butane and a propane catalytic heater. I have a CO detector that will get the readings safely with me not being there via the camera. When its time to retrieve the camera, I open the boat and run a fan for a while before going in to get the data. All's well. Don't make me put on the enclosed space gear and have a safety man on a derrick.

Where are the flaws? Are you talking safety related or controlled environment related or faulty heater related?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 21:03:51

But a sample of 4 (not one) on my boat with my burner will give a better picture of how my burner on my boat is affecting my health than the sample size I have now. See the sample set I have now is 0.

And I'm pretty sure the propane burner is not functioning properly, which is why we don't use iton the baot, and why half the samples wil be done with the faulty burner. If 4 data points on our boats is thesum total of all the research done with this burner on this boat, then we will hold the entire body of knowledge. they'll call us geniuses and ask us to lecture at Yale.

I can't see why you fight against a test that can only prove you right. In fact I think its kinda funny. We all know that the CO levels will rise, the question is how fast and how much.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 21:57:36

Now the question, Chris, is whether you know how much it should not rise. What is your acceptable level? For what length of exposure? If you don't know for sure, the experiment is moot. Any level is dangerous, to some degree. The published levels Ryan posted might have no relevance to children, for example. We're not talking about weight gain here...

The variables here will also include the wind speed outside the boat (which will affect ventilation to some degree), temperature, humidity, people inhaling O2 and exhaling CO2, and other stuff I can't think of. If you find a "reassuring" result, some morning on the boat, your kids might not wake up. The odds of that might be somewhat small... Is that OK?

It isn't for me.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/26/2012 22:13:53

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 22:18:02

Safest solution: Move your boat to South Florida!

Paul

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 22:22:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Safest solution: Move your boat to South Florida!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Then he'll run an air conditioner and the condensation will sink his boat.

Edited by - on

Ryan L
Navigator

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USA
230 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 22:25:25

But freon is dangerous...

JUST KIDDING FOLKS!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Safest solution: Move your boat to South Florida!

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Ryan L
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Response Posted - 01/26/2012 : 22:32:37

The main point I've been trying to make doesn't need to be "proved", it's not hypothesis nor opinion...

Determining if your burner produces CO (or how much is measured) at a particular point in time under certain conditions might be fun for the heck of it but it is just useless fluff from a practical standpoint. If we all agree that burners produce CO, that CO in an enclosed small space is bad, and that our Catalina 25 cabins are enclosed small spaces then what difference does it make how much is measured in your test?

Maybe we can make a CO-to-heat curve. Plot the increase in CO concentration and also the increase in temperature. Where the two curves intersect is the perfect balance of toxic death gas and comfort! :)

Let's go to a warm bar, grab a cold beer, and talk about something else

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 But a sample of 4 (not one) on my boat with my burner will give a better picture of how my burner on my boat is affecting my health than the sample size I have now. See the sample set I have now is 0.

And I'm pretty sure the propane burner is not functioning properly, which is why we don't use iton the baot, and why half the samples wil be done with the faulty burner. If 4 data points on our boats is thesum total of all the research done with this burner on this boat, then we will hold the entire body of knowledge. they'll call us geniuses and ask us to lecture at Yale.

I can't see why you fight against a test that can only prove you right. In fact I think its kinda funny. We all know that the CO levels will rise, the question is how fast and how much.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - Ryan L on 01/26/2012 22:34:07

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