Association Forum - Tall or Standard Rig

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Tall or Standard Rig

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/06/2012 : 19:30:15

I just agreed to buy a 1984 Catalina 25 with a fin keel here in Seattle. It needs a new mainsail.

I think it has the tall rig because the boom is low (just above the pop top when the top is up) and when I pulled up a rope using the jib halyard I measured 29' from the top of the halyard to the bottom of the mast.

I also have the old roller furling system if I could measure that from the sections of track.

Is there another way to check? I don't want to pull the mast down.

What is a source of a mailsail with a fast turnaround? If someone in Seattle has a used one in passable shape that they'd sell to get me though the summer I'd be interested in that.

Thanks for having such a great forum, I'm sure I'll be back with a lot of stupid questions. Next up after the main sail is going to be a new rudder (this one has a tell tale split), marine batteries, and I'm sure a million other small things.

thanks,
alex

Alex W
Seattle, WA
Express 37 "re-Quest"
previously owned 1984 Catalina 25 "Lutra"

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2012 : 19:58:19

Welcome! I think you have a standard rig.

One of the many resources here is a collection of owner's manuals. Check out page 11 on this one: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/manbro/Cat25manpre88.pdf

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2012 : 20:15:19

I think you should remeasure. Your mast height splits the difference between a TR and SR. The boom is indeed close to the poptop on the TR. The upper shrouds should be attached to the outer holes in the chainplates on the TR, not that that is definitive. Using a 50' or 100' steel tape attached to the halyard would be more reliable than measuring a rope.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2012 : 20:26:28

Thanks, I'll measure again tomorrow.

I noticed that the Catalina Direct site lists a different mast step for the tall rig vs standard (the tall mast step is 3-3/8" wide vs 3-1/8" wide). Is this a reliable measurement on the stock step? That is very easy for me to measure precisely.

Thanks for the pointer to the boat's manual. I'll print out a copy for out boat.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2012 : 21:38:43

Congratulations and welcome! The mast step width will help confirm your mast measurement--it's wider for the TR because the mast extrusion is different.

Whatever you pull up with a halyard probably isn't going to make it absolutely to the top, because of the eye-splice and shackle. And the furler probably isn't the full length of the forestay--the swivel generally needs a little clearance, and the halyard that hoists it might go through a "restraining block" a little below the mast-head.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2012 : 22:12:21

If the boat has a mainsail, measure the luff. If it measures a bit over 27 ft. then you have a tall rig. The mast will measure out at 30 ft.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2012 : 22:16:36

It has a mainsail, it is just in sorry condition. I'll pull measure it tomorrow, and measure my mast width for good measure.

The PO thought it was a standard rig, but also said that he thought it had 36'6" clearance under bridges, which got me thinking that it could be the tall rig. I'll be happy either way (but a bit happier with the tall rig).

thanks,
alex

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 08:56:42

It sounds like you're already on the right track, but I wouldn't use the cabin top to boom measurement as the determination of whether this is a TR or SR; you really want a measurement of the mast itself, or the mast plate as suggested above. The reason I say this is the previous owners of my boat lowered the boom because they "thought it made the boat go faster". When I raised the boom to its more proper location and tried to hoist the main, I noticed that the main got hung up about 1-2 feet from the top of the mast, which I think was the real reason they lowered the boom. I'm not sure if mine is a problem with the mast track or the wire halyards, but if your PO had similar issues, he (or an owner before him) may have dropped the boom too.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 09:09:21

The nice thing about this boat is that there is really only one PO. His family bought it in 1986 and the seller has been sailing on it since then.

I have my tape measure with me and will be measuring the sail luff and the mast tonight so that I can go sail shopping. I'll probably see if I can do a patch job on the existing sail (which already has many patch jobs and broken battens) to be able to get a few weeks out of it.

I'll search the archives too, but any quick recommendations for where to get new sails? I expect to keep the boat for a while and don't mind spending a little more for better performance or quality.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 09:17:10

Could be you simply have a tall bimini.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 09:39:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 I'll search the archives too, but any quick recommendations for where to get new sails? I expect to keep the boat for a while and don't mind spending a little more for better performance or quality.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Although I've yet to buy a main from North Sails, I have purchased an off-the-shelf genoa and I am still quite pleased with it. My previous North sail lasted 15-20 years. Pricing is very competitive and North is one of the larger, brand name sailmakers.

[url="http://www.northsailsdirect.net/nsd/tabid/17400/Default.aspx"]North Sails[/url]

Although I have not purchased from Ullman Sails in Ventura, over the years this loft has supplied sails to numerous members and they appear to be highly recommended.

[url="http://www.ullmanventura.com/"]Ullman Sails Ventura[/url]

And congratulations. Welcome aboard.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 09:42:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Could be you simply have a tall bimini.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The boat doesn't have a bimini, just the "optional" (almost standard) pop-top. This is Seattle, the sun is a rare beast :).

alex

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 16:17:42

Copied from the swap meet section:

The 84 TR is a great boat, if I do say so myself!

Assuming you plan to keep the boat more than just a few years, invest in a new main, not a used one.

Meanwhile, call Sail Care in Ford City, PA (1-800-433-7245) about your current sail. They do good work refurbishing sails, and if you send it to them they will tell you if it is too far gone before working on it. Cleaning and their refurbishing process will cost you about $125. Repairs like replacing telltales, sewing, etc. will be a bit more but it should gain you a year or two out of the sail.

Regarding new sails, many here on the forum swear by Gary Ullman in Ventura, CA as being one of the most knowledgable about Catalina sails, but there are quite a few who are also good, such as North Sails, Doyle, FX and others at the higher end. Gus Sails and Waters Sails both make quality sails (Waters sails are used extensively in Catalina 22 racing). For moderately priced imported sails, look to National Sail Supply (they advertize in the Catalina Mainsheet magazine), Island Planet Sails, or The Sail Warehouse. I've had good experiences with all three of these.

Also, ask around for a good sailmaker in the Seattle area.

BTW, a std main is about 24.5 ft tall. The TR main is about 27.5 ft tall. The std mast is 28 ft tall, while the TR mast is 30 ft tall. Also, the TR mast is thicker walled and a bit larger in circumference, but I don't have those numbers.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/07/2012 16:25:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 03/07/2012 : 20:58:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Regarding new sails, many here on the forum swear by Gary Ullman in Ventura, CA...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">He means Gary Swenson of Ullman Sails in Ventura. He knows the C-25 well, and will help you decide on the best sail configuration, including material, batten types, roach, loose or bolt-rope foot, etc. You can't go wrong. North and others are good, but might not be as helpful (unless they're local).

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 07:19:52

Thanks everyone. I measured carefully today the mast length, luff of the existing sail, and the mast width, and I'm sure that I have a tall rig. Now it is time for sail shopping! Ullman and North Sails both have local lofts.

The Ullman loft is right down the street from where we keep our boat, so I've started with them.

Edited by - awetmore on 03/08/2012 07:39:54

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 08:16:09

Sorry for the name goof-up. Thanks, Dave.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 10:36:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Thanks everyone. I measured carefully today the mast length, luff of the existing sail, and the mast width, and I'm sure that I have a tall rig. Now it is time for sail shopping! Ullman and North Sails both have local lofts.

The Ullman loft is right down the street from where we keep our boat, so I've started with them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Awesome, welcome to the club. I have a tall rig and I love it.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 11:45:19

I bought a 135% genny from [url="http://www.nationalsail.com/catalinasails.html"]National Sail[/url]. I like it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 11:45:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Now it is time for sail shopping! Ullman and North Sails both have local lofts.

The Ullman loft is right down the street from where we keep our boat, so I've started with them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When I priced sails at my local North loft, and I don't remember exactly how much, but they were considerably more than the North Sails online off-the-shelf price.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 12:24:46

North Sails doesn't appear to stock sails for the tall rig, only standard. I know that I can get Ullman sails from CD, so I will go that route if the local loft is much more expensive for the same thing.

National Sail has sails in stock, which is tempting is the quality is good. I also checked Bacon for used sails, but didn't see any that were a perfect fit. I may look there for a second smaller jib.

alex

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 13:05:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 I may look there for a second smaller jib.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alex,

You mentioned the boat having an old furling system. Are you planning on going back to hanks?

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 13:27:33

The boat has a hank-on jib now and included removed hardware from the old furling system. The hardware from the older furler appears to be incomplete (missing at least one length of track, plus some of the guts from the lower pivot). It is missing enough that I'm not sure that it is worth putting back together. I hadn't looked closely at the furling stuff when I wrote the first email (and didn't include any value for it when buying the boat). The furlering system is an old CDI one, so I'm not sure if it is worth even trying to fix it.

Since we'll normally be double handing the boat I think we'll stick with a hank-on setup. The current jib is a 135% Genoa.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 13:40:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 The boat has a hank-on jib now and included removed hardware from the old furling system. The hardware from the older furler appears to be incomplete (missing at least one length of track, plus some of the guts from the lower pivot). It is missing enough that I'm not sure that it is worth putting back together. I hadn't looked closely at the furling stuff when I wrote the first email (and didn't include any value for it when buying the boat). The furlering system is an old CDI one, so I'm not sure if it is worth even trying to fix it.

Since we'll normally be double handing the boat I think we'll stick with a hank-on setup. The current jib is a 135% Genoa.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You might rethink that, I have a CDI furler and it makes life a bunch easier. I had one that came with the boat and my first season I used hank on. My wife was so happy when I got the furler installed, best upgrade I've done.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 14:45:31

The things that concern with me using a furler all the time are:
1) somewhat reduced performance compared to hank-on
2) limited reduction of sail area is possible (you can basically reduce a 135 to 100, but not down to the size of a storm jib, right?)

We'll get some more sailing experience before we make a final decision, so I probably won't buy new jibs anytime soon. Used ones don't worry me as much because I can sell them again later without such a huge hit to the wallet.

I can also talk to CDI about what hardware I have and see if it is possible to buy the missing bits to build a complete system again and what that might cost.

Finally we need some sailing time to see how into racing vs cruising we get, so how much these little performance things matter to us.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2012 : 20:50:21

I agree with Peter. I sailed my boat single-hand with hank-on's for the first three years. Last year I installed a Harken Mark IV furler and I will never go back to hank-on's. I estimate the work load for the entire day is reduced 80 - 90% and I never have to leave the cockpit.

Instead of un-hanking and folding sails when I get back to the dock I'm already ready to go. In the same amount of time it took me to stow the hank-on's I'm now 10-15 miles down the road.

My boat is actually faster since I installed the furler because my sail has better shape than the old one.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2012 : 04:11:11

Congrats on getting your new boat !

I second GaryB's comments. I also have a tall rig and a CDI furler and relatively new Quantum sails (out of Quantum Annapolis, MD) main sail and a 150 furling genoa. Back in the 1980s, I had a new ODay23 and that was first sailboat I ever had with a furling rig. My experience back then and sailing 90% by myself, I would always want a sailboat with a furling rig. I do not race but as they say...you are basically daysailing or cruising when you are out alone but if there is just one addl sailboat out there, then you are racing.

Sounds like you are on the right track as far as assessing which way to go with sails. Individuals have been happy going with the sailmakers you mentioned whether off the shelf or custom sized by a local loft.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.