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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/04/2003 : 14:00:16

Hi folks.
I'm still looking for that perfect C25 wing keel (if it exists) I have looked at 3 wing keel boats already, but all had major repair issues. I don't want another project boat. I'll be flying in to Houston to look at one on the 18'th of January. If this boat is right, I'll buy it. I'll need to find a trailer for it. If anybody from the Houston area knows of a local manufacturer, or dealer who is familiar with sailboats, I sure would appreciate the information.
Frank Gloss
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2003 : 20:34:15

Frank - If you buy a late model C-25 Wing Keel, and need to have a trailer built for it, be sure to insist with the trailer manufacturer that they build it to 10,000# GVWR capacity, not the lighter 7500# GVWR. As all C-25 owners know, the factory's published dry weight of 4100# is grossly understated. Even the early model swing keel boats like mine are at least 1500# heavier than that by the time they are loaded with water, fuel, cruising gear, 4-cycle longshaft outboard, etc. The '88-'90 Wing Keel boats are even heavier. We have one in our sailing club, an '88 WK/SR with the optional inboard diesel, that was weighed once on a truck scale at 9500# for the boat and trailer! The difference between the 7500# and 10000# capacity trailers is substantial: you get heftier axles that have bigger bearings, more reinforcement, heavier springs, stronger spring shackles, 8-bolt wheels instead of 5 or 6 bolt wheels, higher capacity tires, a stronger coupler, and bigger brakes. The 10000# trailer is somewhat more money, but trust me, it's worth every penny for your peace of mind when you hit a big pothole on the freeway at 65 MPH, and the trailer's suspension isn't bent or something broken. Almost every member of my sailing club who has been on an "away" cruise has experinced some kind of trailer breakdown, often traceable to the fact that the 7500# GVWR trailers under most Catalina 25's are barely adequate, and have no "extra" capacity for surviving rough roads. Also, get the trailer Galvanized and get disc, not drum, brakes. Galvanizing will double the service life of the trailer and add substantially to it's resale value if you eventually decide to sell it (when you make that inevitable move to a Catalina 36!).

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/05/2003 : 21:23:38

Check out this site - I'm sure there's a good deal or two at the Yacht Club! (A tornado went thru' the marina last week).
Derek
http://www.j22southwest.org/HYC/index.htm

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 10:05:11

HOLY MACKEREL, Derek! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I especially couldn't figure out what happened with that broken piling. What's that picture showing?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 01/06/2003 10:06:08

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 10:13:16

I am interested in this weight discussion.

The published weight of the wing is #4400 on the 10/1/1988 order form.

I am not doubting the previous posts or trying to start a war. It would certainly be possible to add tons of weight to the boat.

BUT:

My previous C-25, a 1989/wing, ESSAYONS rode just fine on a #6800 LB Magic Tilt trailer.

The springs were not overloaded and the tires did not buldge out.

The new owners towed it from Cartersville, GA to New Hampshire and it made it without a breakdown.

I did make one mistake. When loading the boat, I didn't notice that she needed to be a few inches more forward on the trailer. As a result the tongue weight was too low and she swerved at speeds over 55 MPH.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df27b3127cce932570dde93b0000001410" border=0>

This made for a longer trip for her new owners but they never broke down.

I have been told, by a Catalina dealer and the Magic Tilt Rep, that if your trailer is too heavy duty, the stiffer springs will transfer shock loading and vibration to the hull and deck rather than letting the springs do the work. This can cause the hull to compress and, worse case, cause damage.

Another important factor is the age and condition of the trailer. I have seen many rusty pieces of junk carrying very heavy boats. My 1986 C-25 had a rusty old Shorelander that was really straining under the boats weight. I felt sorry for the poor old thing.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bearing maintenance is very important as well.

I also believe that it would be a good idea to carry some of the heavy misc equipment in the tow vehicle and not water or gas up until you reach the destination.

Just a thought to share.

Paul

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/06/2003 10:17:56

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 10:46:47

Dave - the J-22's at HYC are parked on their trailers in an open area. Pics #'s 28, 29, 42, 46 & 47 show the carnage there.
Pic #41 (the broken piling) is from where the J-24's are at the end of the marina closest to Galveston Bay. They are all on hydro-hoists high in the air. The wooden walkway is how the crew get on board and the blue barrel and twisted remains are parts of the hoist and the pilings to which the hoists are attached. When I was there in June for the C-22 Nationals there were at least 6 J-24's in that spot - they probably all sustained damage.
Derek
P.S. Congrats on starting the "700-Post Club" <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 11:11:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...I have been told, by a Catalina dealer and the Magic Tilt Rep, that if your trailer is too heavy duty, the stiffer springs will transfer shock loading and vibration to the hull and deck rather than letting the springs do the work. This can cause the hull to compress and, worse case, cause damage...
Paul
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I've been told the same thing, and tend to believe it. On a fin or wing keel, most of the shock will be transferred up through the keel to the small area that it's bolted to, where much of the weight of the hull is supported.

I also second the investment in galvanizing--especially if the trailer will ever touch salt water. In my experience, it much more than doubles the life of the trailer. The bearings and springs may go earlier, but they're relatively cheap to replace.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 11:12:53

Paul,

I see that you removed the 30lb rudder while trailering the boat, but you left the 100lb motor to fend for itself. Didn't Steve Milby say that he skipped an outboard down the highway doing this?

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 11:39:06

Hi Don,

I think the rudder and tiller weighed more than 30 pounds.

We tied the engine bracket up to the stern rail to distribute the load off of the bracket. I trailered the boat about 150 miles that way and it worked great.

The engine was secured with a locking mechanism to keep the "Screws" from comming loose.

Without this bolstering, I too would agree to remove the engine.

Good observation.

Thanks,

Paul

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 16:54:59

Thanks for all of the good advice on trailers. I talked to Leon Hudson (The owner)with McClain Trailers in Houston, a trailer manufacturer. His company was recommended by someone at the Sailboat shop in Houston, and they make the trailers for them.

Here is where I stand right now. I was quoted $4290 for a galvanized trailer with 15" Goodyear low profile trailer tires. Kodiak disc brakes on all 4 tires. Several trailer manufacturers have told me that Kodiak is a better brake than Tie Down engineering. (Although I did retrofit Tie Down Stainless discs on my Catalina 22 trailer, worked great, but a much lighter boat of course). Hitch extender. Torsion bar suspension. All of the trailer manufacturers I have talked to say that torsion bars gives you a smoother ride. All stainless bolts. The upgrade from a 6,000 lb capacity to 7,500 capacity is 240, and it involves 5" channel instead of 4" channel, heavier tires and axles. I found the discussion of overcapacity interesting. Keel bunk with keel guides. (I didn't even have to ask for that, the guy knew I needed it)

I'll be looking at an 89 wing on Jan 18. The Original owner (one owner only)kept the boat in Dallas until last year. Bottom repainted last year with no reported blisters. No funky modifications that I know of. Some of the boats that I have recently looked at had some real Jack Leg work (old construction term, don't know where it comes from) done by owners who should have known better. The boat even includes a sailboard. That will be 3 sailboards that I will then own. You know, you can never have too many boats. I also own a Catalina 22 swing which I'll sell, and a whitewater kayak.

Feel free to let me know if I'm forgetting anything in specing out the trailer
Thanks
Frank--Maybe real soon a C25 owner.
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 18:15:24

Hi Frank,

I hope others will respont to this post. I am very interested in this particular discussion. I beleive it's of value to all of us who trailer big boats.

Disc brakes on all 4 wheels.

My Magic tilt had 4 discs and they worked great. I wanted it that way and nobody objected. The extra brakes didn't cost vey much anyway.

Then I was told why I should only have brakes on the front axle.

Jacknifing.

Here is the theory: If you have brakes on all 4 wheels, and you lock them up, the trailer could jacknife or do a sideways power slide so to speak. It could even flip sideways.

With brakes on the front axle only, the rear wheels will keep the trailer in line with the tow vehicle even with the brakes locked. Meaning, you can steer in a panic stop situation.

Lets air this one out. It's important.

Thanks,

Paul

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 18:35:47

Good point on the brakes. A friend of mine was very adamant about getting discs on all 4 wheels. Something about having reserve braking on wet roads, load shifts, and some other issues which I can't remember. This was even more important as I don't have a dually, just a full size 4wd Silverado with 7800 lbs towing capacity.

Will a Danforth anchor, properly set, prevent jacknifing?
Frank

Frank

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 19:12:44

Hi Frank,

Your silverado will pull it just fine.

I'll try the danforth idea next time I stop fast.

I posted a little drawing on the mast raising system on the swap meet.

I'm not trying to be a pushy salesman but my trailer would work great for a wing keeler.

Paul

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 21:02:59

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
. . . All stainless bolts . . .

Frank
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'm sure the trailer manufacturer knows where and where not to use stainless as opposed to hardended steel bolts . . .

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 21:31:39

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Good point on the brakes. A friend of mine was very adamant about getting discs on all 4 wheels. Something about having reserve braking on wet roads, load shifts, and some other issues which I can't remember. This was even more important as I don't have a dually, just a full size 4wd Silverado with 7800 lbs towing capacity <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Frank this one is important. You can easily over power the brakes on a trailer. They will only slow you down to the point that they lock and slide. I agree with Paul's statment about jacknifing.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With brakes on the front axle only, the rear wheels will keep the trailer in line with the tow vehicle even with the brakes locked. Meaning, you can steer in a panic stop situation. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Your tow vehicle's front brakes are your real power stoppers. This is where a load distribution hitch is most needed. The weight is kept loaded on your vehicle's frame so that the brakes and suspension work more efficiently. But I'm sure your trailer guy is well informed on this.

<img src="http://www.chaplin-nest.com/unkarock/usflagwav.gif" border=0>
Mark-
'Impulse'
C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~

Edited by - Mark Maxwell on 01/06/2003 21:35:21

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 21:47:23

I'm confused.

With a surge mechanism, how could you possible lock up your brakes. Once your tires break free of the pavement there is less friction. With less friction there will be less braking, therefore less surge pressure to activate the brakes, and then they should release.

Am I thinking correctly? Am I missing something?

As far as which bolts should be stainless, and which is hardened, I sure hope the guy, who has been in business for 5o some years knows his stuff. I'm just learning about specing a trailer. I have been talking with Leon Hudson, the owner of McClain Trailers in Houston.
Anybody out there know of him?
Thanks
Frank Gloss

Frank

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/06/2003 : 22:27:18

A very interesting thread.

The same principle was really applied to autos and light trucks. Smaller drums and braking effect on rear wheels.

If doing both axles, perhaps use drums on rear axle and disc on front?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 07:21:58

Just read thru this discussion and while I have nothing to add, and don't have a trailer for osmepneo, the discussion has been facinating and certainly offers alot of stuff to think about when I get one. thanks all for sharing such interesting information <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 07:25:23

Frank,

I hope that the Houston boat your going to see in a couple of weeks is right for you and meets all your expectations. Since wings are fairly rare, have you given thought to converting a swing keel? In spite of Fran and Jason's experience in the doing, it is one way to get the perfect boat. Just a thought.

Go blue. Go Big Ten.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 09:11:57

If you really want great brakes, get electric brakes. You can adjust the amount of force they apply, and they really hold! Personally, I think surge brakes should be outlawed.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 09:33:29

Steve,

That is an excellent point.

Electric is the way to go. Especially when going down the ramp, BUT Some electric brakes cannot be submerged.

Technically, Surge brakes are illegal. I researched this when buying my MagicTilt.

In the USA, DOT rules specify that any multi axle trailer carying more that #3000 must have electric brakes.

I called Performance trailers in Florida and they said it was not true.

Then I called the Florida State Patrol and they explained the law to me. It is not enforced on any great scale but could be if needed.

Important note here: Electric actuators are available for surge brake trailers for around 4 to 500 bucks. This will give you electric capability without the water intrusion issue.

Here is my personal opinion.....SLOW DOWN!. Drive carefully, be defensive and learn the "feel" of the trailer as it brakes. Learn your stopping distance as well. By doing this, I avoided killing 2 people in a mini van who pulled in front of me as I was stopping for a light. Idiots! The weight of my C-25 and Shasta motorhome was about 14 to 15 thousand pounds. I would have smashed them like a flea! I was already braking and had the distance figured out. When they pulled in front of me I had to floor the brakes. The rear trailer wheels locked up because of the weight transfer. I was able to change lanes and miss them. Quite a ride! The #6800 Magic tilt took the load and lane change with out a quiver.

DID I SAY BUCKS......#1..BABY. Those slow fat Ohio boys sure sped up for the Miami game.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

P

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/07/2003 09:35:08

Edited by - pwhallon on 01/07/2003 09:51:09

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 11:46:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I'm confused.

With a surge mechanism, how could you possible lock up your brakes. Once your tires break free of the pavement there is less friction. With less friction there will be less braking, therefore less surge pressure to activate the brakes, and then they should release.

Am I thinking correctly? Am I missing something?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Frank: I don't trailer our C-25, but have pulled a lot of trailers... Obviously, brakes are one of the keys to preventing jacknifing, since they (theoretically) keep the trailer from trying to pass the stopping tow vehicle. If they lock, as you point out, they lose their traction. But the front wheels of the tow vehicle (especially with antilock brakes) have more traction than the trailer, so now the trailer is trying to pass it--sideways, backwards, or however it can. I like Paul's idea of less (or no) braking power on one pair of wheels. Even better is his admonition to avoid the need to make hard stops. More than ever, keep thinking about where you can steer to get out of a situation.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/07/2003 : 15:56:16

Well yes, of course being careful in driving is paramount. I have had a drunk pull in front of me, and there were multiple fatalities involved. That's why I want the safest trailer possible.

I have heard that electric brakes are totally inappropriate for salt water.

I have re evaluated my thinking on the lock up issue. Previously I thought that if the brakes lock up you lose friction and therefore less surge pressure. Now that I think about it, you would Have more pressurs.

I sent an E-mail with this question to the folks at Kodiak, the manufacturer of disc brakes. Several trailer manufacturers have said that these brakes are superior to the Tie Down Engineering brakes. Of course they are in business of selling more brake units, but I told them I trust their hosesty.

I'll let you know what their answer is.

It sure would be easier if I just could get Scotty to beam me down to the Keys.

Frank Gloss
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

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