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Tohatsu vs. Honda

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pfduffy
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Initially Posted - 04/04/2012 : 13:34:58

Ok - just about to pull the trigger on a new motor. The question - is a Honda motor worth $900 more than a Tohatsu? Both 9.9 (8), 25" shaft, electric start, etc. I'm leaning towards the Tohatsu for the obvious 900 reasons. Is there anything else I should consider??

Pat Duffy
1984 SK/SR #4113
Slàinte

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 04/04/2012 : 14:09:08

I have a Tohatsu and it has been a great motor. But if I had to do it over, I would get a Mercury. The Mercury is the same motor as a Tohatsu, but it has forward/reverse controls built into the tiller. Sorry, can't comment on the Honda.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/04/2012 : 16:43:24

We all might have brand favorites, I have a Mercury for the above reason, but all of the big brands are solid, quiet, reliable motors. The way manufacturers do things (controls, lift mechanisms, what side to lay it on, etc.) and features are the only real differences. The 12 amp alternator is a feature that distinguishes Honda from the others with 5 - 7 amp units. My wife convinced me to get what I wanted because the motors last a very long time, her and West Marine, who gave me a very good price when I showed them the OnLine Outboard Tohatsu price. I still paid $4-500 more for the Merc, but I would have gone Tohatsu if it had been more. Tohatsu wouldn't be building Mercury and Nissan if they didn't build a good motor. Buy the Tohatsu if you like it and keep $900 in your pocket. It's like a Catalina, a good motor for a good price.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 04/04/2012 16:44:41

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 06:18:48

For C250 owners, the fit of the motor into the transom cutaway might be as much a concern as the brand name. Since I have to dock in 2-3 kt currents, slow speed maneuverability is a huge consideration. To help with this I customized a [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20807&whichpage=3"]hard link[/url] with my rudder/steering. My current motor (2000 Honda) can fully rotate with the tiller up if I mount it at the exact spot that provides about 1/8" clearance on both sides (see pics on the link above). If I had to replace it, I would care more about this than what brand was on the cowling. I'm especially concerned that the newer Honda models have bulkier upper unit designs that would not have the clearance to rotate like my 2000 vintage motor.

Others may not have this need, and some may prefer an articulating mount to hang off the transom (which can create other issues, so I avoid it). But I'm just adding this into the discussion to point out that there may be other considerations specific to the boat design.

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 06:42:33

I'm a Mercury man, always have been....fond childhood memories of a 115 Power Tower (most beautiful motor ever made).....

I bought a Tohatsu recently....love it....great motor. Guy next to me with an O'Day 25 bought a new motor too...and got the Honda 9.9....long shaft, electric start, power tilt....wow, super nice motor.

The Good: It's really quiet! Surprisingly so....and very smooth. Power tilt and electric start ....yeah thats uber cool too. Very powerful...near hull speed easily at 1/2 throttle. It's a Honda; they make great motors. Nice lookin motor too, real sleek.

The Bad: Man that puppy is heavy! He had to put a serious motor mount back there, real heavy duty. It cost him a pretty penny. He had to use a crane (forklift) at a nearby marina to install the motor, and will have to use it again if he wants to remove it for whatever reason. It's just too heavy to manhandle by himself. It makes his boat sit low at the stern, just slightly, but you can tell.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 07:14:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 ...Man that puppy is heavy!...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The latest generation Honda motors are both bulkier and heavier than their earlier models. The current BF8 XLS is the same weight as my 2000 BF15.

They seem to have changed the alignment of their power heads. My 2000 BF15 has the same 280cc power head (and same overall weight) as the BF9.9. However, on the newer models with the bulky rounded upper unit, the BF9.9 and BF8 share the same power head (and same weight), and the BF15 is all the way up to a 350cc head.

15 hp is way more than I need for my boat, but knowing that it's no heavier than Honda's current BF8 has caused me to just leave it. The extra power is handy for quick stops, such as when I'm pulling into my slip with a 3 kt current.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/05/2012 07:16:29

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 08:48:25

I have a 2006 Honda 9.9hp xls. It has worked flawlessly since Jan/Feb 2006. One improvement I like over some other outboards, although, I believe the Tohatsu and other more recent outboards also have this feature is the absence of a manual choke. Believe it is controlled electronically and works fine. The Honda as mentioned before has twice the charging amps compared to most other competitor's outboards but as with most sailboat owners, most times you may only use the outboard to get in and out of the marina and only occasionally for long distances so the robust charging capability may not be that beneficial. One difference between the Honda 9.9 XLS is that it has a more robust shaft compared to the regular Honda - I noticed this when i changed the pump impeller this past winter and the water pump impeller the marina furnished me with was too small a diameter to fit on the shaft. Checking back with the marina, they then realized my model comes with a larger diameter shaft. I now recall that it was considered a high thrust model and does come with 4 blades on the prop which i believe aids in slow speed maneuverability such as when i back into my slip.

But these are not huge benefits over the Tohatsu and I believe the Tohatsu also has an auto choke control. Another benefit of the Honda is that because of the heavier weight, you get a workout if you have to carry it around - Takes the place of some resistance exercises at the fitness center ! Though, most would not consider this a benefit. It really comes down to the $900, who can service it in your area if you need to bring it in and your preference.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 08:51:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 I still paid $4-500 more for the Merc, but I would have gone Tohatsu if it had been more.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From my experience, that is money well spent as I currently have a Merc' with the integrated throttle shifter and I just can't see myself ever owning an outboard without this feature. Kind of like roller furling, once you have it, it's hard to go back. I was a little giddy the first time I used it.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 09:35:15

If Tohatsu also makes the Mercury does that mean that the parts to get integrated throttle shifting might be available for the Tohatsu and Nissan motors? That could be a nice upgrade.

I have the Nissan/Tohatsu 9.8 on our boat and no experience with anything else, but it has been working well for us. Is the Honda available with a 25" extra-long shaft and a low pitch prop? I don't think I'd want anything else.

My only minor complaint with the Tohatsu is that the clicks between neutral, forward, and reverse can be hard to feel. Our Tohatsu does not have automatic choke control (and is about a year old).

The alternator might be small on the Tohatsu, but I don't find that to be too big of a deal since we also have solar charging and don't have large electrical loads on the boat. I've been replacing all of our lighting with LEDs and the only other loads are the music radio and VHF.

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 09:56:21

Something you might look into is a Power Tiller. Their website is horrific and looks like it hasn't been updated since 2005, but I've been very pleased with mine. Instead of having to reach over the transom to operate the side mounted shifter, I can have both the shifter & throttle right on the tiller, as well as a start & stop button. This became very important for us when we had to mount our Tohatsu on a Garelick scissors mount, which put the engine even further away and lower down. While this was an expensive upgrade ($500 I think?) it was worth it to me.

Here are a bunch of videos from their site (all done on a C-25 BTW) using the owner's 16 year old daughter: http://www.powertiller.net/Demonstration.htm

There are no links back to the main site on his pages, but you can navigate your way through to eventually find contact information. The owner Bill is pretty good to deal with, and very helpful over the phone if you run into problems.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 10:39:45

The Merc Bigfoot has a bigger shaft, bearings, and gears in the lower unit and more gear reduction to turn a bigger prop at lower speed for displacement boats. Superb low speed handling. It is heavy, though. I don't know if the newer ones have auto choke, but mine doesn't and it isn't finicky about choke setting - full on to start and off shortly after, time depends on temp. My only (mild, whiney) complaint is that it turns CCW for forward and CW for reverse - counter-intuitive for me on the starboard side, but it makes sense if you're on the port side reaching over to the motor.

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pfduffy
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 10:51:25

Good information - thanks! I've had one person tell me that Tohatsu motors are "pieces of crap." (He happened to be trying to sell me a Honda motor at the time.) Would anyone here who owns a Tohatsu agree with that statement?

The differences as far as I can tell between the motors is: 1)the capacity of the alternator (Honda = 12amp; Tohatsu = 6amp); 2)manual choke on the tohatsu, electronic on the Honda; 3) Tohatsu is lighter than the Honda.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 11:22:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've had one person tell me that Tohatsu motors are "pieces of crap." <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've had the Tohatsu four years. Starts right away and runs great. The only problem I've had, is the low speed jet clogging (twice). I seem to have corrected the problem by, 1) running all the fuel out of the carb while I flush the motor. 2) draining the fuel out of the fuel line before use.

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 14:44:28

I've had mine for about the same amount of time with the same problem, the low speed jet clogging, which was compounded by a malfunctioning fuel bulb which was starving the engine of gas. Neither problem were really the fault of the engine, I don't think any engine would run well with rusty water/gas in the carb. The fault lies in the steel gas can rusting after going through phase separation, and me blithely plugging the can into the engine and running it.

Given all that, I'd still recommend a Tohatsu to a friend, if you take care of it, it'll run well. And it's pretty easy to work on.

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 15:13:16

I just bought a Tohatsu, love it. But, I've only had it a couple weeks.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 17:23:49

I just sold my 1984 C-25. We had a Nissan(Tohatsu) 9.8 elec. start, 25" shaft. Great motor, but I also had low idle jet clogging issues. Not a big deal in my opinion. The shifter control is in front of the engine, not on the side, but not on the tiller/throttle control either, and it was not a problem. I also liked that it was 93 lbs, rather than the heavier Merc. The tiller/shifter control is probably nice, but I wouldn't pay $900 more for it. Look at the Yamaha as an option if you think you need the shifter on the tiller. Theirs is on the side of the tiller, but not incorporated into the throttle.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/05/2012 17:27:31

Stinkpotter
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 19:16:44

It seems idle jet (low speed) clogging is a common issue among 4-strokes, which are apparently more finely jetted than the older 2-strokes. My Honda suffered from it once in six years--right when I was selling the boat. Beyond that, I think the story is weight versus a few functional advantages. Experience here is that the Tohatsu is not "junk".

I really liked my 108# high-thrust Honda 8--its the same engine as the 9.9. (Don't spend the extra $$ for the 9.9. According to a Honda rep, the 8 is cammed for more low-RPM torque and the 9.9 for more high-RPM HP you'll never use.) My C-25 sat right on her lines with the engine--no different than with an older 85 lb. Honda. 15-20 extra lbs. didn't make much difference with a 1900 lb. keel under a 4500 lb. boat.

But enough people love the Tohatsu 9.8 that I wouldn't recommend against it, especially if you expect to remove it from the boat periodically. And the Tohatsu 6 XLS sounds like a good alternative for some situations.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/05/2012 19:25:04

John Russell
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Response Posted - 04/05/2012 : 19:36:46

I llike my Tohatsu and would buy another.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 05:35:42

I usta hate Mercs, but Dad bought a 1998 5 HP 2 cycle short shaft that stayed in the crate for the last 14 years till I finally pulled it out and traded it for reupholstering work on the sailboat.

I fired it up and ran it for about an hour and it looked and acted great. Really nice design and light engine. Easy pull to crank. I really wish it had been a long shaft as I would have kept it..

But then I already have 2 old running engines...

You could hook up the external tank, pump the bulb and it would fill the onboard tank.

It would have worked great for a lake engine...

Edited by - on

pfduffy
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Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 09:44:35

Dave - thanks for the advice. I've decided on the 8hp Honda that I am getting for nearly the same price as the Tohatsu (within $50.)

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pfduffy
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Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 13:37:28

Dave - thanks for the advice. I've decided on the 8hp Honda that I am getting for nearly the same price as the Tohatsu (within $50.)

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islander
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Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 14:35:13

I'll take a manual choke over an electronic one any day, Call me old school but if your out on the water and have a problem like a partially clogged jet you can compensate for the reduced fuel by pulling out the choke some to keep it running. Try that with an electronic choke. Same goes for a carb verses fuel injection. Just my 2 cents.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 18:04:48

I'm on Scott's side. Anything automatic reduces your options and is another level of complexity that can fail.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 04/06/2012 : 19:19:01

Scott,
I am in full agreement with you about the manual choke. I'd appreciate having one on my Honda. At this point, however, it's working fine, so I'm not about to modify it. I'd say the only problem I have with the engine is that it weighs over 100# and that's a little more than my comfortable carrying capacity!

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 07:52:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Scott,
I am in full agreement with you about the manual choke. I'd appreciate having one on my Honda. At this point, however, it's working fine, so I'm not about to modify it. I'd say the only problem I have with the engine is that it weighs over 100# and that's a little more than my comfortable carrying capacity!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I also prefer manual choke, which is what my older Honda has. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to use one, and it bothers me that people are so inept that mfrs figure they need to make it automatic. But, a company like Honda tends to do a pretty good job at knowing what its customers want.

I do have a tip to offer. Last fall I bought my own pressure washer from Sears to do bottom cleaning. Unlike the older one that I had borrowed from a friend 5 or 6 times, mine had automatic choke (and automatic throttle, which sensed when you were actively washing and cranked up the motor accordingly). Online reviews for it were all over the place. About 50% of the people complained that when you shut it off (which happens pretty frequently due to refueling) it would have to cool for an hour before it could be restarted. The other 50% said they had no problem. Upon reading the manual (which I downloaded before making the purchase), it said to be sure to run it on idle for 1 minute before shutting down. Apparently this allows the motor to cool enough so that you get enough choke to start up again immediately. I've followed those directions and had no problem with my washer. One time when I was going to be shutting down for an hour anyway, I tried the "control experiment" where I shut down without first idling, and then tested by trying to restart again immediately. Sure enough, that thing would not start up at all.

This reinforces my concern about adding complexity with "idiot proof" features like automatic choke. The need to idle for a minute before restarting seems a lot more complicated than just having a manual choke, and seems to have confused about half of their customers, many who have returned their pressure washers for refunds and swore to never buy another Sears washer again. I consider it less "idiot proof" than manual choke would be.

The moral of my lengthy story is if you have problems restarting your new Honda, it might be a similar problem with the automatic choke, and you might want to be sure to idle for a minute before shutting off. Maybe your manual even says something about this.

Edited by - TakeFive on 04/07/2012 09:41:55

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/07/2012 : 08:35:40

Manuals are often the last resort

Many irritations and problems can be avoided by reading them, but I don't see that happening.

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