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Does this keel look OK?

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Chakana
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/08/2012 : 17:12:39

We are planning on replacing the lifting hardward, pivot assembly, and adding the spacers. I (Anna) was getting ready to order the kits from CD but decided to go crawl under the boat, to get a better idea of what's going on. Here's what I saw at the front of the keel (there is a similar piece on each side):

My question: is this original? I've got the CD owner's manual and owner's handbook on order, which might help when they arrive.

Regarding the back of the keel, this eyebolt looks scary to me:

Is it OK to have rust around it? It feels solid. However when searching for answers on this forum, I read a story about the eyebolt breaking on a guy who just bought his boat and had it out for the first time. Should I order the new eyebolt as well as the cable replacement kit?

Charley & Anna Louiso
Chakana 1984 C25 SR/SK #4192
Louisville, KY

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/08/2012 : 18:05:46

Charley,

Your question is a little like asking if a 25+ year old car (that you purchased second hand ) has the original driveshaft. You'll probably never know. More important is how worn the pivot pin is. In your picture, is the forward bolt broken off - or is there just crud around the hex head?

The rust around the base of the eyebolt is (as you most likely surmised) is from the cast iron keel - so that wouldn't be unusual. Unless there are cracks visible to the naked eye - it's a tough call to predict if it will break in the near future. Has the boat always been in fresh water? If it were my boat and I was concerned about the integrity of the eyebolt - I'd replace it . . .

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/08/2012 : 18:40:55

My initial concern is the same question about whether not there is a hex bolt on the forward end of the hangar. A broken bolt there can be a major repair My "83 had a regular eye bolt before I replaced it with the CD fitting, not the fitting that yours has. I would really like a better look at both the hanger and the pivot housing.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 06:51:32

The "eye" bolt does not look like an eye bolt to me. It looks like someone has created a solution to a broken off eyebolt. What I don't see is how the strap is attached. I would want to know who did the work. When I got my new eyebolt kit I could not get the old one out so I figured the old was must be OK. Yours looks like a strap formed over the eyebolt attachment point, if an eyebolt were to brake off I could certainly see that solution as viable... provided it is stainless. The "hanger" does not look right either; see how flush mine was:

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 07:37:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 The "eye" bolt does not look like an eye bolt to me. It looks like someone has created a solution to a broken off eyebolt. What I don't see is how the strap is attached. I would want to know who did the work. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

CD???

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 09:41:00

You look right to me.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 10:59:33

Wow, my luck never turns out that way! Usually I'm the one with the funky one-off solution devised by the previous owner (or, in some cases, by the current owner), not by someone who knows what they are doing. Congrats Anna! At least that's one bit you won't have to worry about!

Edited by - JimGo on 04/09/2012 11:57:54

JohnP
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Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 11:42:07

...by the way, it was Anna who asked the question in this post.

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Dave5041
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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2012 : 12:49:18

It fooled me at first because id didn't look exactly like mine, but it probably is the CD attachment. An end-on photo would provide absolute confirmation. We definitely need a better look at the pivot hanger. I, too, thought it might be warped and possibly missing a bolt, but it could just be the photo.

Edited by - on

Chakana
1st Mate

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62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 05:27:22

Have been very confused about this whole issue, and spent several days searching the forum.
I am so stressed out about all this! Charley thinks we will have much less stress if he just jacks the boat up off the keel, on the trailer, instead of having the time contraints of being at the boat yard on the lift. So I guess today he will be working on that. I found a few good threads and printed them off for him.
Anyways, here is the head on view of the eyebolt (is that the right term?)

Regarding the questionable bolt on the hanger at the front of the keel, it seems like there is some kind of hardened, grey, stuff in the hole there (I say it looks like concrete) and we don't see the head of the bolt. Surely the head isn't broken off. Don't see how that could happen....Charley will look at it more today.

Thank you everybody.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 06:39:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Regarding the back of the keel, this eyebolt looks scary to me:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The rust you see is most likely surface rust on the keel and not going to affect the lifting bracket. The bolt is deep into the keel.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">it seems like there is some kind of hardened, grey, stuff in the hole there (I say it looks like concrete) and we don't see the head of the bolt. Surely the head isn't broken off. Don't see how that could happen<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That looks, from the photo, like it might be Grey Marinetex. If the PO tried to remove the bolt, it may have broken off.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 07:30:16

I've been at this for decades longer than I can believe, and I still have a boat hook in the cockpit in close quarters. If I have crew, there will be a boat hook on the foredeck too.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 07:45:20

It could be barrier coat, any evidence of barrier coat elsewhere on the hull?

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 07:47:40

I just wrote a longish post, logged in since I had forgotten to when I started, and the above post came out of some time warp to replace what I had written.

Summary:

1. That is CD's nice attachment system - you're good
2. The hanger bolt probably had the head twisted off, it is stainless and difficult to drill for an easy-out.
3. Remove the Marine-Tex or what ever it is to see what you have (the Marine-Tex might have bonded the hanger to the hull)
4. See if there is a service company that might be able to remove the broken bolt
5. The receiver is a ss fitting in the hull laminate and should be replaced by a profession if that is your option, but the part is available from CD
6. Loosen and retighten the bolts annually to prevent future problems

Edited by - Dave5041 on 04/15/2012 07:49:01

Chakana
1st Mate

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62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 17:25:03

We were able to get the boat jacked up off the trailer using house jacks, 4 x 4's, railroad ties, etc. (thank you to this forum).
To make a long story short--the bolts are seized. One is broken off. No one can get them out. We've tried everything. So now to finding a professional to replace the threadments.
I have been worried sick about all this. I know it's just a thing--keep trying to tell myself that.
So does anyone here have experience with this? Does it require cutting out the area and re-fiberglassing? Not that we would attempt it, but just hoping to get some piece of mind/understanding.
I've done a search on this forum but can't seem to find information. Surely we're not the only ones who have bought a poorly maintained boat with seized bolts.
Thanks guys
Anna

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 18:02:28

Hi Anna - I don't have personal experience but I'm pretty sure my boat (at some point in its life) has been through an invasive keel pivot replacement.

The clues are:
<ul><li> an access hole has been cut into the port side cabin sole right beside the pivot trunk. </li><li> The pivot hanger is installed upside down </li></ul>

If you look at Frank's picture the pivot hanger is inside the trunk and the hardware is flush with the hull. On mine the pivot is mounted in reverse so the hardware is deeper than the hull line. The result is my keel is about 2 inches deeper in the water. I'm guessing the reason for doing this is "they" (who ever they were) were challenged with refitting the pivot in it's proper position either due to cracked glass or ceased bolts. After drilling/cutting the old pivot out it would be a much easier glass job to rebuild the trunk/attachment bolts flush with the hull line.

Unfortunately the path of lease resistance creates a bit more water resistance for my boat.

This is mostly forensic guess work on my part - the PO had no idea there was even work done, or so he said ;-)

Edited by - Novi on 04/22/2012 18:03:20

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 18:07:32

I also have not done this.

But I would suggest drill, ream, tap, new bolt. If it seized and broken off, you aren't going to get it out anyways.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 18:09:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">. . . Does it require cutting out the area and re-fiberglassing? Not that we would attempt it, but just hoping to get some piece of mind/understanding . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Cutting out the fiberglass that contains the hanger bolt weldments would make the project exponentially more involved - a last resort.

Sounds like it's time to consult a professional - drilling and using an EZ-Out should be left to the skilled - at least in this situation.

You could also contact kent@catalinayachts.com and see if he can offer a solution. Kent is an engineer.

You might also float the issue on another forum (if only for a second opinion) - there's a wealth of experience residing here - including some professionals.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/

Beware of boatyard hacks!

Edited by - OJ on 04/22/2012 18:42:30

Chakana
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 18:57:37

Novi--I'm having trouble picturing what you're saying, but it's nice to know there's more than one way to repair it.
Prospector--Per CD--"Note: If the machine screw is seized into the weldment or shears off it is not possible to drill an oversize hole and tap new threads. Loss of the keel may result as the wall of the tube is not thick enough to accommodate a larger hole. "
Is this what you were talking about doing?
OJ--thanks for the contact info. We'll contact Kent right away. We tried the drilling and EZ out, but no luck--due to bolts being Stainless Steel. Regarding boatyard hacks. We live in a town with very few sailboats. Closest store (WM) is 2 1/2 hours away in Indianapolis. We know of only one professional boat repair person--everybody we know uses him. He's all we've got.....

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 19:17:04

For hardened steel, you most probably need a high speed steel or even carbide tipped drill bit

http://www.wlfuller.com/html/drills_for_hardened_steel.html

Edited by - OJ on 04/22/2012 19:33:41

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 04/22/2012 : 20:25:59

Not hardened steel - its SS. Hard to begin with and work hardens when you try to drill it regardless of the bit material. I have drilled 1/8" SS plate with success using a lot of oil to keep it cool, but that isn't an option when drilling overhead. Somebody did post about replacing the receivers, but I have no idea who or how to find it.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 04:38:25

Prospector--Per CD--"Note: If the machine screw is seized into the weldment or shears off it is not possible to drill an oversize hole and tap new threads. Loss of the keel may result as the wall of the tube is not thick enough to accommodate a larger hole. "

Good thing you did your research - that is exactly what I was suggesting.

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Novi
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 06:14:34

Anna, I'll be at the boat later this week and I'll take a few pictures of the reversed hanger. I'm not saying what was done is "right" - it does seem to be a bit of a hack job - but like you said, at least there are options.

At least my keel hasn't fallen off yet!

Todd

Edited by - on

Chakana
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 07:18:55

I found a thread on another forum...a seemingly knowledgable guy suggests left handed cobalt drill bit.Says it will cut through the stainless steel. Found set at auto zone. Keep fingeres crossed!

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 10:28:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Not hardened steel - its SS
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">True, but there are different strengths of stainless (this article also discusses the use of anti-seize:)

http://www.totallystainless.com/TS-HS.pdf

Edited by - OJ on 04/23/2012 10:31:11

Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/23/2012 : 11:03:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chakana
 I found a thread on another forum...a seemingly knowledgable guy suggests left handed cobalt drill bit.Says it will cut through the stainless steel. Found set at auto zone. Keep fingeres crossed!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As someone else mentioned, if your drill is not sharp, stainless will work harden quickly. Even if your drill is sharp, stainless will work harden quickly. Since the boat is up high, you will need to spray cutting fluid from beneath. Drilling this could become a 3 person job.

Person 1: Works drill plugged into GFCI plugged into power cord ( http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip46.html )
Person 2: Sprays with cutting fluid from a mister bottle
Person 3: Refills spray bottles

With 2 spray bottles and constant, liberal application of cutting oil, you may get through the stainless without incident. Or not. But a constant stream of cutting fluid will only help you. You may be required to reclaim the cutting fluid due to environmental concerns. I don't have suggestions for enviro-friendly cutting fluids.

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