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hapless newbie questions about the 25

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krobsten
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/12/2012 : 16:35:36

Hi, folks!
I almost didn't join because it appeared the last post was from 2009, but after I did I saw all the new posts. I'd heard about the community that the Catalina enjoys, and this is one of the biggest reasons my wife and I are looking to purchase a used one one this weekend.

Let me start with an apology if this post is in the wrong place--I read other threads like it but didn't see my specific questions. Does anyone have any advice/links for a hapless newbie as he mulls his first Catalina 25 purchase? It's a 1984 model and I'm buying it for $5,000 (which is a huge investment for our two-teacher budget). My sailing experience consists of a rubber ducky in the bathtub. I have been told by many that this is a great boat on which to learn while still having a little room for me, my wife, and three cocker spaniels. In fact, I saw a picture that user Dlucier posted of his girls on what appeared to be a large bed that took up most of the cabin (would love to know how to do that).

I'm going out on the boat with the owner this weekend. Is there anything in particular I should ask about? Any advice would be most appreciated. As I’ve read on many other posts, my wife is less enthusiastic about the idea of sailing (she really wants a power boat), but I’m hoping she’ll appreciate it as time goes on. She’s 5’8 and I’m 5’11 but 290 pounds—I’ll see this weekend if I can fit!

These are the specs the owner listed:
Very Good Condition 1984 Catalina 25, Swing Keel, Standard Rig, Well cared-for family boat with original good condition interior cushions and woodwork, fully equipped with all original Manuals and Handles. 2009 9.9 Long-Shaft Mercruiser, Wired for Shore Power with Heavy Duty Yellow cord. VHF radio, New Fuse Panel, Battery Switch, Mast Wiring, New mast down-lighting, Bilge Pump and Swimming Ladder, Two 2011 Batteries and Charger, Installed Gas Tank and Spare Gas container, Life Vests, Throw Life-line, Two Anchors rode, Lewmar Self Tailoring Winches, 2010 Depth Gauge, Spare Centerboard Cable, Spare Shroad, Fold-down table, Water Tank, working sinks, Never Used Porta Pottee, Bumpers, Blue cockpit cushions. Comes with complement of 4 sails. Main, jib, hank-on 150% Genoa and Furling 150% Genoa. Sails are only in fair condition, usable and no rips, but not crisp. Furling system has bent center section and comes with boat, but is not installed. Damaged in Parking lot when mast was stepped. New Catalina Mast step (no compression) for added Vang and Downhaul. Homemade lazyjack system, and Homemade Engine-to-Rudder steering linkage makes this boat easier to motor than others. Wood trim on pop-top is solid but dry. Not something I kept up with. Ablative bottom paint is two years old.

I’ve seen user Stinkpotter stress the importance of an appraisal, so I’m looking into one of the appraisers from the site he listed. It looks like it might be around 500 bucks—is that normal/reasonable? Lastly, I need to get it from Westport, CT to Stratford, CT, which is about 12 miles by road—but I don’t know how long that is to sail (nor how to sail the boat to get there in the first place). Is there someone you hire for this sort of thing?

Thank you for creating this amazing site--I will continue to look for another thread in case this one is unnecessarily repeating.
Rob

"I finally got off the dock... the problems is I can't get my boat out of the slip!"
Rob & Kristen, hapless newbies
Stratford, CT
1984 Catalina 25 SK

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:27:44

Thanks for your post and welcome. I weighed 300 when I chose my first 25 because it handled my weight very well. You will fit fine. You cannot make a mistake buying a good Catalina 25, it is a very liquid asset which you can get out of anytime... oh and my wife and I are also teachers. No one in our part of the country gets a survey but people on the Eastern seaboard seem to need them. I think there are so many boats back there that there is a much better chance of finding a bad boat than here in the Great Plains. Personally on a 5K investment I would probably do some reading on surveying and do it myself. The deal is that there are so few "systems" on a 25 that everything is pretty obvious if you have read up on it a bit. Your big fear is a soft deck and that is pretty easy to spot; as are water damaged bulkheads.
Are there pictures we can see? Is it listed with photos somewhere?

Edited by - on

krobsten
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:38:43

Thank you, Frank. I didn't know if I was going overboard (pardon the pun) with the survey, but I just don't know enough to know whether I can afford NOT to? Thank you for the info regarding weight--that sets my mind at ease. I don't have pictures yet but will have them on Saturday--if it helps, I'll post them. If you and your wife are both teachers, then you know why we're getting a boat--we're hoping to have an excuse to leave the essays we have to grade at home!! :) Thanks again for the info.
Rob

Edited by - on

OJ
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USA
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:39:55

There's probably no one more qualified (on this site) to advise you on the water route from Westport to Stratford than Stinkpotter.

If your sailing experience is limited to the bathtub (funny!) then my vote would be NO.

Wouldn't be surprised if a member here offered to sail with you to your new home port.

Good luck and fair winds!

Edited by - OJ on 04/12/2012 17:40:48

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:40:06

Welcome Rob! I'm a newbie like you and have only had my boat for a year. My best advice is to go check the boat out carefully. Spend some time looking at every attachment point of equipment to the hull and deck. Don't be afraid to open every compartment and take a peek. Make notes of everything you have a question about. Then ask your questions. After this if everything looks reasonable to you, then spend the money and hire the survey person.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:43:58

For transport - is the boat on a cradle, jackstands, in water, or on a trailer? If it is on a trailer, you are golden - hire a friend with a dually pickup or a towtruck to move it for you. We hire a towtruck for about the same distance as you are going and have found it to be the most economical way to move the boat.

If it is at all possible to move it by water, and if it is reasonably safe to do so, I would motor home. Hang out at your future marina and ask around if anyone is willing to lend a hand etc.

The equipment sounds good with a few bonuses. Self tailing winches are a nice thing to have. A lot of the other stuff is pretty de rigeur though. Learning to sail you will be hard on the sails, so older ones are a good thing. once you get the hang of what you are doing you can save towards a new set, and pass those along or keep them as spares. We learned to sail on new sails and it was a mistake. We beat up some really good sails and they have aged prematurely.

Do get the survey. If nothing else it will give you peace of mind.

Also go in with both eyes open. The capital cost of buyin gthe boat is small compared to expenses in upkeep and mooring. We budget about $4000/yr to stay afloat. This year marina fees alone will cost us over $2400 in the Toronto area.

Edited by - on

krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 17:57:03

Thank you so much, everyone! OJ, I will look into it--it's awkward because I don't know anyone. I hate to have my hand out before I know someone, but maybe I just have to suck it up. Waterbaby, I'll take that advice this weekend. Prospector, the boat is in the water and it has no trailer, so it looks like water is going to be the method of transport. Thanks for the tip about the sails--I would have thought it was the other way around! As for the yearly budget, I sat down with my wife and made sure we could swing about 3,000 a year between insurance, mooring fees, winterizing, winter storage, and general upkeep. The mooring is looking like about 700 bucks at the boat club we joined. We're figuring on spending an additional $2,000 every two years on repairs/improvements. Does that sound reasonable?

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jerlim
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USA
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 18:03:00

Welcome to the Association and maybe the fleet! I'd say the swing keel, it's winch, various components and keel pivot are important points to consider. Also check on the age/condition of the standing rigging and just how much do the windows leak...12 miles is just 3 hours (or less...) on a good day - perhaps you can suggest/convince the current own that it would be GREAT for him to join you on the trip...you'd learn a lot!

P.S. - with out question, Stinkpotter, is your go to for CT coastal cruising!!

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 18:14:38

$3,000 would have been our budget about 3 years ago, down there prices may be better than here. Good luck adn welcome to the family!

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krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 18:21:41

Thank you, Jerry--never would have thought to ask those, either! As for the prices, it's rare that anyone ever talks about Connecticut prices being lower, so I probably need to revise my numbers!

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 18:23:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by krobsten
 We're figuring on spending an additional $2,000 every two years on repairs/improvements. Does that sound reasonable?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You can do a lot with a $1,000 per year . . . depending (naturally) on your todo list and how much work you'll do yourself.

For maintenance in 2012 we'll spend $18 for a can of Collinite paste wax and $5 for a new star washer for the furler.

Edited by - OJ on 04/12/2012 19:55:27

krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 18:24:02

Frank, just got done looking at the photos of your renovation of FellowShip. I can't tell you how incredible that was. While I could never duplicate your craftsmanship, it does open my eyes to possibilities I'd never considered. Thank you for sharing those!!

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dmpilc
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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 19:20:46

As a just recently former 1984 C-25 owner, welcome to the Association. 84 was a good year for C-25's, okay I'm just a bit biased! This forum is a jewel in the rough when it comes to sailboat ownership. Virtually everyone here, including some former owners who continue to hang around because it's fun and interesting, will gladly help you as much as they/we can. If you do buy one, try to find a friend, or friendly dockmate, who will go sailing with you and help teach you. If possible, also try to get on another boat as crew and learn as much as you can. You are in for a great experience.
For the first year or two, just take it slow and easy, and get acquainted with your purchase.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/12/2012 19:22:19

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 20:33:57

Don Casy's Inspecting the Aging Sailboat

Great reference book available at a bookstore near you. Dave (Stinkpotter) is right, of course, about a survey. It will give you a good list of problems and potential problems. However, I think there comes a time when the boat cost and the survey cost doesn't add up. You have to be the judge of that. I will add emphasis to the peace of mind a survey will give. If you choose not to get one, be sure to at least have the swing keel lifting mechanism looked at by somebody that knows about them. The sudden failure of a swing keel mechanism could be catastrophic. As in "boat to the bottom of Long Island Sound -- Quickly!" catastrophic.

I'd be more concerned about what you said about your wife's preference for a stinkpot. Sailboats go slowly and lean a lot. They lean enough that, to a novice, the sensation may feel like the boat is about to turn over. It won't (probably

) but the feeling is one that you (and she) will have to get used to. Stinkpots go fast and stay flat. The differences are substantial. The big upside, based on the 2 teacher salary, is that sailboats are far less expensive to operate.

Edited by - John Russell on 04/12/2012 20:37:09

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 21:54:08

Welcome! I just purchased a 1984 swing keel in October. She's our first boat, though my wife and I took lessons on a 14' at a local lake before taking the plunge. It's a little overwhelming at first, but you'll get used to it. Do you have any friends who sail? If so, get them to come out with you.

[URL="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/summert2.asp"]There's a self-assessment checklist on this site[/URL]. Print it out, read it five times carefully. Make sure you understand all the details. Take a copy with you when you look over the boat. Make it clear to the seller, in advance, that you will be spending at least an hour and a half aboard looking at all the various parts, then TAKE YOUR TIME. DO NOT LET THE SELLER MAKE YOU FEEL RUSHED. Take LOTS of pictures, then come back here and ask questions. You won't find a more helpful forum anywhere on the Internet. Now, all that being done, you'll have a very thorough review by someone who is new to boating, and a review by people who are at least 2 degrees of separation removed from the boat. Only you can determine whether you want a survey after that. In my opinion, when you get to the point where the survey is less than 10% of the cost of the boat, it makes sense. Do the cursory stuff yourself (i.e., the checklist above), and if everything looks good, then hire the surveyor. I didn't use one, because the cost was a much more significant portion of what I paid for my boat, but in hindsight it would have been nice to have someone say "standing rigging is OK for this season, but I'd look to replace it", "that engine isn't really outputting enough water - better check the impeller/water pump", "the lower portion of the sail looks pretty blown out - you'll probably want a new main sail in a year or two", etc. That kind of knowledge would help you assess what your budget will be for the next few years, which can be helpful.

GOOD LUCK! And again, WELCOME!!!

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 22:17:20

Insurance is cheaper for a sailboat then powerboats.Powerboats need gas and lots of it. I think some insurance companies require a survey. I've had my 25 since 1992 and have never regretted it. Go out in the evening put some Jimmy Buffet on open a cold one PRICELESS.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/12/2012 : 23:25:14

I second Don Casey's book, well worth your time to get and read it several times so you know what to look for. We opted to not go through a survey, but the PO of our boat was a member on this site, and after looking at about 3 dozen boats I felt I had a decent enough handle on it. I still don't regret this decision, but I'd encourage you to get a survey once you've gone through the process outlined by Jim above (lots & lots of pictures) and you're pretty sure you want to buy the boat.

You'll get reasonably objective opinions here by folks who know and own the exact same model boat you're looking at.

Edited by - on

Chakana
1st Mate

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USA
62 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 04:26:04

Hi Rob,
Welcome!
We also are newbies--purchased our 1984 swing keel in October. Currently getting her ready to splash.
We love, love, love our boat!
Hopefully your wife will fall in love with sailing the way we have.
Good luck!
Anna

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Davy J
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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 04:48:01

When I purchased my C25 I knew squat about sailing. I had been a stinkpotter for years, but never sailed. I picked up these two DVDs and watched them over and over. Although dated, they cover most of the basics and give visual images to the lessons.

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krobsten
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 05:36:36

DavidP, I'm always happy to hear that 1984 was a good year for the Catalina!! ;)
John and Delliottg, thanks for the tip on Don Casey's book--I ordered it this morning, and I added the two videos that DavJ recommended to my Netflix queue. John, your reference to ending up on the bottom of the Sound has pretty much cemented the fact that I'll get the survey! Jim, thank you for the checklist--it's printed out and ready to go for tomorrow. I am looking around at sailing classes trying to find something that fits my schedule. Panhead1948, the Buffett is ready and the beer cooled, now I just have to get the boat! Chakana, had you both sailed before getting your boat, and have you been on the water yet?

Folks, thank you so much for the information--this is really helping me tremendously!!
Rob

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:06:37

I just bought a 1984 too (we've had it for about 5 or 6 weeks). We did not get a survey, but our boat also didn't have the swing keel. I inspected it myself using advice from the Don Casey book. Now that I've spent lots of time with the boat I do feel that I found most the issues when doing the survey. If you are less handy a survey will give you a good idea of what work is required soon, and that alone might be worth $500. Note that a 1984 probably needs some larger projects soon, like new standing rigging and maybe a new rudder. BTW, our insurance (State Farm) never asked for a survey.

Have you considered taking sailing classes? That'll give you and your wife a chance to see if you like sailing and will make you a lot more comfortable the first time that you take out the boat. I know that people do learn from videos, but I found our classes to be invaluable. I live in Seattle, not the east coast, and took the "Get Zapped" class at the Center for Wooden Boats. The class was great, it was all hands on time and designed for two people who are learning to sail together. We spent about 12-14 hours on the lake sailing with our instructor and learned a lot of useful skills like various man overboard procedures, how to heave-to, docking under sail, and steering the boat using sail trim instead of the rudder. I personally don't think that I've have felt comfortable buying my own sailboat without having taken these classes or getting some equivalent level of education.

We are loving the boat so far, and look forward to longer trips on it this summer. I've had it out on the water 4 times now, one of which was an all day sail (in some winds that were a bit over our heads).

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:09:12

Rob,
I just took a look at the map. The route to get you from Westport to Stratford looks pretty straightforward. If you decide to buy this boat, I'd consider sailing/motoring it. You're looking at only a few hours on the water, no overnights or anything. Good luck, and be sure to come back and tell us how it went!

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Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:25:47

Rob,

As others have stated, you are at the right place for all things Catalina 25! I frequent several internet forums and this one is one of the very best. Although I sold my '81 SK/TR last year to move over to a little bigger boat, I still frequent this forum (though I don't post as much) because I learn something everytime I log on. You are in great commpany!

A $500 survey on a $5000 boat is probably not a bad idea, given your stated level of experience. A surveyor can't and will not find every issue, but they can find the most serious ones (usually). Big ticket items on the C-25 include: standing and running rigging, sails and their condition, outboard power, swing keel pivot pin and winch, and core delamination. The surveyor will probably not be able to give you much information on the pivot pin or hull (osmotic) blisters with the boat in the water, but he should be able to give you a very clear opinion on the other items.

I would ask how you intend to use the boat? If you want to race, you probably want to have a boat set up for that. If you want to cruise, high-end sails and slick bottom paint aren't really that important. If you want to use it as a waterfront condo on the weekends, you might be more interested in accomodations. If you plan to sail the boat occasionally, you might get by with the current sail suite for a few more years. If you plan to sail a lot, new sails would be to the top of the list of things to spend money on. Looks like the furler is damaged and the current owner has gone back to hank-on sails. I find a furling head sail is a wonderful piece of gear for a novice or shorthanded crew. You might consider the price of a furler repair in your offer or at least consider getting the furler fixed before you start cruising. From the description, I would say the boat is good condition and well-cared for. That is important. Like JimGo said, read through the self-assessment link. Then go to the boat. Plan on spending several hours there. Look in every nook and cranny. If you haven't ruled the boat out by then, make an offer contingent on the survey. Then pull the trigger.

John R. also offers sage advice regarding the "admiral". Sailing isn't for everyone. Like John says, they go slow and "tip over" as my bride says. My bride loves to have dinner and a glass or three of vino while tied to the slip, but she really is ambivilent to the actual act of moving a boat by wind. Every relationship is different, but what has worked well for me is that I made/let/persuaded my wife to lend her "touch" to the boat. What kind of candles to use, what to name the boat, what color pillows to buy, where do we slip her, where to put the dishrack, what kind of air freshener to use - all these little things make her feel the boat is as much hers as mine. I update my wife on ALL maintenenance issues, even though she doesn't really care. As strange as it sounds, she's more emotionally attached to the boat than I am!

Good luck and take pictures. This place is good about answering general questions and downright spectacular answering specific questions. We've all been where you and your wife are now and want to encourage you to make the best decisions. The most difficult is usually to decision to make the plunge. So much to think about - mooring fees, repairs, upgrades, insurance, surveys, etc. Looking foreward, it looks like you are stepping into the abyss. Looking back, you are just stepping off the dock.

Edited by - Tom Gauntt on 04/13/2012 06:31:18

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:48:11

On the serious side of the wife issue; your life depends on her being able to drive the boat. Any monkey can get a power boat back to someone in the water if you happen to fall off, but getting a sailboat back is not easy. Do not tell her about this now but she must learn to sail the boat. Start with light winds, night sailing is magnificent and make sure she gets to show off sailing to her friends... with wine and music and a full moon if possible. Get her hooked and she will be fine.

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:50:09

Hey Rob, welcome aboard and hopefully congrats on the impending purchase!

You've found the best place on the net for C25 owners....do as Jim said and inspect the boat yourself, take your time, take pictures and post them up for more experienced eyes to see.

When I was initially learning there were 2 resources that stood out among all the others:

Don Casey's [url="http://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334324668&sr=8-1"]Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual.[/url] This fine book is a combination of all 6 of Don's books, including the Inspecting an Aging Sailboat volume. This book is an incredible value and is indispensable for maintaining, fixing and upgrading your boat.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Annapolis-Book-Seamanship-Edition-Revised/dp/0684854201/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334324822&sr=1-1"]The Annapolis Book of Seamanship[/url] by John Rousmaniere. This excellent book is, IMHO, the best beginner sailing book out there. There are also 5 DVD's that accompany this volume. You can put them in your Netflix queue; that's what I did.

Have fun and post up some pictures.....we love pictures.....

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/13/2012 : 06:50:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by krobsten
 Frank, just got done looking at the photos of your renovation of FellowShip. I can't tell you how incredible that was. While I could never duplicate your craftsmanship, it does open my eyes to possibilities I'd never considered. Thank you for sharing those!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank you. The truth is that I am just a screwdriver guy, anything I do to boats is just optimized maintenance. Bu thank you for the complement on my choices.

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