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Boat that clueless couple about to buy--thoughts?

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krobsten
1st Mate

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46 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/15/2012 : 08:07:11

Hi, folks!
This post is a little long, but I wanted to cram in all the info I found yesterday. It looks like I've found the boat for me--or, more accurately, the SELLER for me! This guy was amazing. He met my wife and I at 8:45 in the morning yesterday, and we left for home at 2:30. He took us out for a long sail on Long Island Sound, which basically turned into a long sailing lesson. My wife loved it (which was very important to me)!!

He was very upfront about the following:
He doesn't wash it down after sails, hasn't taken care of the teak, it has a small leak in the cabin door because the wood has rotted (he's ordered a new part), and he keeps it in the water year-round. He's only the second owner, he just had the keel looked at last year (taken out of water and inspected), and he's kept all the original stuff. He has the hull brushed in the water each year for barnacles, and he doesn't clean it often. He just sails it and isn't worried about being too clean.

There was some standing water in the floor panel (not the keel one?) he said was the result of his having left it in the water all winter and he hasn't done any maintenance yet on the boat. No signs of leakage other than the floor under the cabin door from that leak (he said he just puts a towel down). It's hard to show how trustworthy someone is, but we both got the feeling that this guy was being very honest--he really didn't even want to give up the boat. He wasn't shy about sharing what was wrong with the boat, and assured me that it's in good condition outside of needing routine maintenance and new sails/rigging when i get more serious about speed.

He made a neat little bar that connects the engine and the rudder to make it easier to steer both with one hand (it pops off when he pulls the engine up to sail). He obviously loves the boat and to sail, was familiar with this community, and has been heavily involved in his own boat club for years.

We agreed on $3500, with all the items listed here:

"Very Good Condition 1984 Catalina 25, Swing Keel, Standard Rig, Well cared-for family boat with original good condition interior cushions and woodwork, fully equipped with all original Manuals and Handles. Nothing wrong and comes with lots of extras - too numerous to list. Currently in the water and rigged for sail. Buy and sail away today, I have a new boat coming next month. In Westport, Connecticut at Cedar Point Yacht Club. Sold complete, operational and with all as seen in photos and described below. Will entertain offers including a dinghy.

2009 9.9 Long-Shaft Mercruiser, Wired for Shore Power with Heavy Duty Yellow cord. VHF radio, New Fuse Panel, Battery Switch, Mast Wiring, New mast down-lighting, Bilge Pump and Swimming Ladder, Two 2011 Batteries and Charger, Installed Gas Tank and Spare Gas container, Life Vests, Throw Life-line, Two Anchors rode, Lewmar Self Tailoring Winches, 2010 Depth Gauge, Spare Centerboard Cable, Spare Shroad, Fold-down table, Water Tank, working sinks, Never Used Porta Pottee, Bumpers, Blue cockpit cushions. Comes with complement of 4 sails. Main, jib, hank-on 150% Genoa and Furling 150% Genoa. Sails are only in fair condition, usable and no rips, but not crisp. Furling system has bent center section and comes with boat, but is not installed. Damaged in Parking lot when mast was stepped. New Catalina Mast step (no compression) for added Vang and Downhaul. Homemade lazyjack system, and Homemade Engine-to-Rudder steering linkage makes this boat easier to motor than others. Wood trim on pop-top is solid but dry. Not something I kept up with. Ablative bottom paint is two years old."

Here are the pictures several of you requested:
http://www.photoshop.com/users/krobsten/albums/2be1599c515e4bc69121b8448fce5f62

My thoughts (ripe for being wrong):
The depth of the channel in LI Sound we sailed out of reached 5.2 feet at one point--that left only 2 feet of clearance for the swing keel! I never knew it was that shallow that far out--is this a reason to HAVE a swing keel, as I've read it doesn't go down as deep?

Also, the furler is hopelessly bent as someone ran into it while it was about to be hoisted. Only the middle section is damaged. Anyone know of the cost/location of a place to do this around Stratford, CT?

Lastly, I know there are issues with this boat, mainly surrounding the idea of the swing keel but mostly around the general upkeep up the boat (which the owner was very upfront about). Is my reasoning flawed when i say that at some point I have to just GET OFF THE DOCK, ALREADY. If there is no perfect boat, does getting this one for $3500 (knowing it works, sails and engine, and trusting the seller) make sense for an absolute beginner? The seller even agreed to sail it up to Stratford with me!

As always, any thoughts are MOST appreciated!!

"I finally got off the dock... the problems is I can't get my boat out of the slip!"
Rob & Kristen, hapless newbies
Stratford, CT
1984 Catalina 25 SK

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 09:37:48

I think that at $3500 it might be well worth the risk. assuming that it is sound and the only issues are cosmetic. I'd still want somebody to look at it with objective, knowledgable eyes. Old boats leak but I'd want to know where it's leaking. If it's simply the companionway hatch - no problem! The motor sells for around $2500(new). I guess that if I were in your shoes, I'd buy it. If it's structurally sound, you can clean up the cosmetic stuff and sell it for profit in a year.

You can't sail the boat with the keel up unless the conditions are very calm. The swinger is only shorter than the fin when it's up.

I understand your need to "just get off the dock". It took me a very long time to buy my boat. I kept coming up with one "reason" after the other. For $3500, it might well be the time to take the plunge.

BTW, I'm glad your wife enjoyed the day. That makes it your boat (together) and not just your boat. Very important.

Edited by - John Russell on 04/15/2012 09:39:32

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 09:40:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The depth of the channel in LI Sound we sailed out of reached 5.2 feet at one point--that left only 2 feet of clearance for the swing keel! I never knew it was that shallow that far out--is this a reason to HAVE a swing keel, as I've read it doesn't go down as deep?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is a benefit of having a swing keel, although the wing doesn't need maintenance. I routinely lower and raise the keel to get into shallow areas that would not be accessible to a fin keel. I don't trailer my boat.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">No signs of leakage other than the floor under the cabin door from that leak (he said he just puts a towel down).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I can almost guarantee that the windows leak. I think everybody here would agree. They are fixable.
Inspect the keel and associated parts for any surprises.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 09:51:33

Looks pretty well sorted: ENJOY YOUR NEW BOAT!!
Sails will be a good deal of expen$e in the future. New sails will allow for a flatter shape, thus less heal which may instill more confidence esp. early on while learning.

check out the bilge water and the swing keel trunk for damage, check out the survey information and go in informed. when I first read your description, an owner that doesn't clean may be less apt to take care of maintenance on a timely manner as well. Again at low cost, if it floats you should be able to get your $ back out of it as depreciation is so far down the curve.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 10:08:51

Boy this is difficult to answer without actually seeing the boat but the price for an 84 is reasonable and you say/get the feeling that the seller is honest so, Not washing or taking care of the teak isn't a big deal,You can take care of that. The leak if it is at the bottom of the steps in front of the galley is common to the C25. Comes through the hatch boards when it rains, Not a big deal. Keeping the boat in the water year round would be a concern to me. The C25 is prone to blisters and is a sure way to get them and as another member found out that having this fixed is expensive. Does he have proof of the bottom inspection? When was it last bottom painted? A swing keel in salt water is going to need maintenance. I think the cable and turning ball need to be replaced every 2 years ( I could be wrong ) but Catalina eventually dropped the swing in favor of the wing because of this. I don't think it has a balanced rudder ( would be a plus) but I would want to check its condition for any water penetration,Cracking etc. If the standing rigging (wires) are original It is probably due for replacement. 09 Merc is good, A plus. Self tailing winches are good, A plus. Cockpit cusions, A plus. Interior/cushions look good. The engine bar is a personal thing, Probably helps in tight maneuvering but I never found that I would need one. As long as the sails are in serviceable condition they will be fine for your learning years. Later on you will know if you want to replace them. Having only 150% Hanked on Genoa on the Sound might be to much sail without a way to reduce sail if the wind picks up unless you get the roller fixed. Changing hanked on sails with the wind blowing hard is a scary thing even for seasoned sailors. They do sell parts but you don't say what make the roller is, 135% is better. A 135% on a roller is best. 2 new battery, A plus. Lines not led to the cockpit, A neg. Means you will have to get on the cabin top to raise/ lower sails etc. This can be changed. Long Island Sound is one of the best sailing areas due to its depth. Many places well over 100ft. although there are some shallow and rocky areas. Having a GPS Chart-plotter is mandatory in my opinion. It will show you where you are and how deep it is ahead of you along with many other items like speed, course, time till arrival etc. All in all it looks to be OK at that price but I can only go by the photos. Possibly get the owner as part of the sale to help sail the boat back with you, Its not that far and you can drive him back. If you motor it count on 3-4 hrs. Try to pick a windless day, Early in the morning is usually best. As you said There is no perfect boat. The perfect ones aren't for sale. The C 25 is a great boat, Sails well and has great support so your on the right path but the final call is really up to you. Don't you love the excitement yet nervous feeling?

Edited by - islander on 04/15/2012 10:56:23

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 10:35:31

That motor is just about new and is probably worth $1500 all by itself assuming it has been maintained and runs well. That boat looks like it is in reasonably good shape. It is easy to spend other people's money, but $3500 seems like a pretty good price.

I would recommend that you remove the box around the forward end of the keel (wooden box in the center of the cabin)and inspect for signs of damage. Water in the bilge is always a bit of a concern because these boats are generally very dry. However, leaking windows and companionway boards could certainly explain it.

I'm not sure I would spend $500 on a survey for a 3500 boat, but if you can find someone who is willing to look at it with you to see if there are any obvious problem areas that we can't see in the photos, that would certainly be worth a nice meal. It would probably be enjoyable as well!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 10:47:37

Funny that she's been in the water (in Westport?) all year but is registered in NY...

I believe the SK draft is 5' fully lowered, compared to 4' for the fin keel. There are shallow spots and dangerous rocks all along the LIS coast--you just need to know where they are. You may have been in or around the Norwalk Islands--that can be especially tricky if you don't know the territory. The "controlling depth" of the channel in Stratford is sufficient for much bigger boats--your keel type shouldn't matter there, but "Voyager" Bruce has more "local knowledge" on that.

When you say you "looked at" the other boats I mentioned, do you mean "in the flesh" or on the web? John Russell is right--don't fall in love with the first... I don't want to belabor the SK subject, but seriously, I would take a look at least at the two FK boats. I can't comment based on the pix, except the Westbrook boat apparently has a newer 4-stroke Merc, a working furler, and lines led back to the cockpit so you don't have to go onto the cabintop to raise and furl sails. The New Rochelle boat is newer and the price is lower, but the details are missing... (Lazy broker?) An '84 FK has a lead keel with stainless keel bolts--I believe the 81 fin is cast iron, with bolts that tend to rust. Both boats are a one-day sail from Stratford.

I won't speculate on repairing the bent foil on the Westport boat, and don't know rigging shops in that area. Most metal foils are put together with sections, but age could make it difficult to find a matching section. I would tend to consider the boat as not having a furler. (Think $1500 for a furler, but it varies.)

On each boat, I'd want to know the age of the stays and shrouds ("standing rigging")--15 years is about as long as you should go in salt water, even if they "look good." (Think $750.) I'd look for signs of water intrusion affecting the plywood deck core (hard to see) and cabin bulkheads where the upper shrouds are attached. There are lots of other "little things" that are more obvious...

Do you know where you'll be keeping her--summer and winter?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 10:49:01

If you decide to get the boat, you should put some rubber cane feet on your boarding ladder's standoffs so they don't beat up your gel coat.

The boat looks like it could use a good scrubbing on the inside, I'd bet he's pressure washed the outside as it looks fairly clean. I worry about someone who doesn't keep up with routine maintenance on a boat as your current owner freely admits. You could be betting your life on someone else's spotty work, something to not take lightly.

I'd make sure you understand the state of repair of the keel mechanism before purchasing. However, Catalina built these boats well, and you may have found a little gem in the rough. The current owner seems willing to work with you, but judging from your comments it is probably worth the time, effort and expense of a survey prior to purchase. You might be able to offset the expense in a lower purchase price if the surveyor finds something awry. At a minimum, you'll have an idea of the work ahead of you (trust me, there's lots, there always is, even if you buy a brand new boat), and you'll have a much better idea of how sound the boat is.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 11:14:44

Without having seen it in person... Buy it!!

Edited by - on

krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 11:17:54

Thanks, folks.

John, I am VERY grateful that she had such a good experience. Makes a huge difference. DavyJ, would a window leak cause that panel to fill up with water? I hadn't thought of that. Ape-X, I agree with you and I'm hoping that the fact that I was actually sailing/motoring on the boat for a significant time is enough to merit buying this at such a low price. Scott, I'll check into the the cable and ball--he says it was last painted the summer before last, and that I'd need to paint before next summer. He pulled it out last year to have keel checked, but doesn't have papers on that. I definitely feel excited but nervous, which has usually meant I never pull the trigger on buying. There's something about this guy I really trust.

Pat, I'm trying to line someone up for that now inspection now. Dave, the owner lives in NY but has it docked in Westport. I'll be keeping her at a slip (hopefully) in Stratford, CT during the summer, and probably winter storage at the same facility for the winter. I might investigate keeping it at my house this winter in an attempt to do some basic carpentry fixes (about the length of my skill set), but we have a sloping lawn that might not be a good idea. Delliottg, I was thinking that same thing--rubber it is! As far as "betting my life" on this, is this really that dangerous even if something horrible happens to the keel? I would never do anything that far off shore, and I've been figuring the worst might be a problem and leak that would eventually sink the boat but that Stratford marine police would be able to take me off well before then. Am I being too careless in thinking this?

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 11:35:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">DavyJ, would a window leak cause that panel to fill up with water? I hadn't thought of that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Water leaks have a way of getting into places you would not think of. Leaking windows on a Catalina 25 are common, especially the older vintage with the aluminum frames. Before I fixed my windows, water would show up in all sorts of places. One strange place was inside the ice box.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 11:46:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As far as "betting my life" on this, is this really that dangerous even if something horrible happens to the keel? I would never do anything that far off shore, and I've been figuring the worst might be a problem and leak that would eventually sink the boat but that Stratford marine police would be able to take me off well before then. Am I being too careless in thinking this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Depending on the authorities to rescue you is a bad plan. You need to be as self sufficient as possible. You have no idea what the response time will be, how easy you'll be to locate (do you have a GPS and a VHF?, is the GPS set to the same datum as the one the rescuers are using?, does the VHF have a good antenna and working batteries?, are you close enough to a receiving station to be heard?), or how many other people need rescuing in front of you.

The captain of a vessel is solely responsible for it and it's crew. It's your responsibility to insure that the boat is in the best shape you can get it and you don't put it into danger. You do as much as you can to minimize the danger, but it's never completely gone, and you need to be as ready as you can be for emergencies.

I'll let the C-25 swinger folks weigh in on the relative dangers of the mechanism failing.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 11:59:19

The portlights and genoa track can both leak into the bilge (if that is what you are describing. look at the inside of the hull in the lockers for water tracks. Both problems are common and easily fixed. If the water is on the cabin sole (and the bilge isn't full

), then it is probably through the hatch. I would never buy a swinger without seeing the keel and pivot assembly. Saltwater mooring can hard on the whole system, especially if there are no zincs on the keel. Incidentally, I paid twice that for Pearl (a freshwater boat until I got her) on a trailer, but my keel caveat still stands.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 12:04:49

I have to side with the swing keel issue as being an unnecessary maintenance/Cost and possible catastrophe if and I stress if you don't trailer the boat. I'm going to duck now.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 12:36:23

One little item... A 150% genoa (Westport boat) is a pretty big sail for beginning sailors--it's bigger than I'd choose, and I've sailed for more years than you've been alive. I liked my 130%, although I didn't race my C-25. That slightly smaller headsail is easier to handle and see around/under. (110% is the "standard" jib on most sailboats.) So as you look at boats, don't think "bigger is better" for your genoa.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 12:47:48

Photo 1:
tired sailcover; red fades badly and is a poor choice of colors
lazyjaks yuk but many people want them and it shows someone added something to the boat

Photo 2:
Main looks fine
odd motor mount, might be OK
topping lift is great
split backstay is a nice one.
Boat is tied up well

photo 3:
Tired winch, how it spins is what counts

photo 4:
stay rollers also mean someone has bought toys for the boat, a good sign
HUGE... mast plate at mast base, leading lines back is now a piece of cake.
Fenders are properly placed, good sign.
Has snaps for pop top cover, ask about where it is.... important
stanchions look straight
windows look good, no globs of silicon around them

photo 5:
pulpit looks square
Anchor holder is handy
forward hatch looks fine
deck port light looks good
lifelines look good

photo 6:
steaming light has been replaced, good sign
Halyard slap marks is bad, owner is rude to neighbors
Lazyjaks rigging not well done... toss it

photo 7:
power panel replaced, a good sign
interior looks dry... needs lemon oil
dirt on fiberglass above light is disturbing, that is a hard place to get dirty

photo 8:
window looks good, mine never leaked on either boat
chainplate bolts for upper shroud looks good
what is round item on settee front
fiddle rail need lemon oil
old light fixtures are too bad but understandable

photo 9:
The teak is fine from what I see, sand, teak oil and go, that is what this boat has had in the past
stock pop top risers, optional gas struts are available to help lift

photo 10:
split wood trim to hatch boards is typical and not very important
ladder pads noted
hull seems in good shape, just needs scrubbing and polyglow
tiller covered, it should look like new, if it doesn't it probably needs replacing, week tillers are dangerous
"system" for stowing tiller to port, a good sign of storage routine
mainsheet stock, old and adequate but would have been nice if newer
Boat name "joint roller"?
no upgrades to hardware in cockpit
no instruments
check scuppers for seal around flange, leaks common

photo 11:
sign of standing water on vanity wood, not good
boat hook and possible whisker pole very good
fire extinguisher is good sign
upholstery look fine
where are the rest of the curtains, they are very expensive

photo 12:
typical stuff laying around
strong radio
curtain burner, odd that it is still there, probably never used
floor boards will be first winter project, make new ones

photo 13:
vanity is an option, most have it
the few chainplate bolts visible look good

photo 14:
as it should be

photo 15:
rudder seam might be open
hatch boards look typical

photo 16:
bottom looks nasty
hull looks fine, no dock dings

photo 17:
garlick motor mount does not go down as far as it should, poor choice of motor mounts

photo 18:
OH... it was bought with the proceeds from joints
tiller is upside down and looks poorly maintained, probably has lamination issues and should be replaced
motor link unnecessary on Cat 25, I consider it limiting and a bad idea

photo 19:
now I am confused about the split backstay, where is the upper block? No block is bad idea, will pull mast to side

photo 20:
ah, round thing on settee face is a vent, why? sounds like a long history of a wet bilge

photo 21:
oh my, water intrusion from the hatch boards is not that hard to stop, shame on them
How does the keel winch feel? Should be smooth and stop instantly in either direction
where is the winch handle
cushions are probably nasty under the upholstery

photo 22:
a paddle!; several
what is white thing on quarter berth? Poptop hatch extension?

photo 23:
should be bone dry, looks fresh and clean

photo 24:
oops, it's been used lol
the Gods like this boat, it has not burned down
now I know where the rest of the curtains are
4 drawer interior is nice option

photo 25:
clean but poorly maintained

photo 26:
trucker bungy is rusting toss it
transom cut out trim broken, trivial, unavoidable UV damage
mounting plate for mount should be Starboard, not wood
toss this motor mount when you can
how can anyone feel the boat with the motor linkage? toss the linkage now
after tossing the linkage you will be able to decern if the gudgeons need replacing... they do

photo 27:
tiller even more F'ed up that I thought.
Rudder has not been respected, note screw holding tiller up
rusted zink nut on tiller bracket
needs new tiller, stainless hardware and possibly to refinish rudder head after removing motor bracket.
Bracket was bad idea
rehabilitating the rudder and rudder hardware top of list

The boat is certainly worth the money since it has not sunk while left in water for extended periods, (IMHO)

I would not own a swinger in saltwater but I have demons you probably don't have.

Edited by - pastmember on 04/15/2012 12:54:55

krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 14:21:20

Interesting stuff, here, and a lot to process. Scott and Frank, thank you for going through the pictures with a fine tooth comb! Frank, when you say red is a bad color for covers, what are the good colors? I suspect blue, but how about green? The winch slipped a tiny bit according to the owner yesterday because the lines have grown smaller? The white thing in quarter berth is a box from Catalina Direct for a replacement middle-wood piece of the hatch. The replacement for broken piece on the back (cut-out transom?) was also in the box; he put it on yesterday. By the way, the name came from two brothers pooling their money to buy it new.

Dave5041, there are definitely zincs on the keel. Stinkpotter, I understand your concern about the size of the sail--it was hard to see around as we had it up. However, I was planning on just petering around with the main sail for a season or two anyway whenever possible as I master the craft. I will definitely keep an eye out for a smaller one.

Delliottg, I agree when you write that it's my responsibility to insure that the boat is in the best shape I can get it and don't put my crew into danger. I certainly take that seriously. It has a VHS and depth finder (and I saw that they worked), and in taking it out it certainly performed well, and I'll have the keel looked at as soon as I can. However, what you and Scott (and to a lesser extent Frank and Dave) seem to be saying is that simply having a swing keel is too dangerous in itself. Am I right on this?

Or, maybe another way to ask this, is how many times have people in here heard of a catastrophic failure of the swing keel? In reading through the forums, I see the issue is raised, but I'm having trouble getting a handle on the actual number of occurrences. The owner said it was just pulled up and inspected last year, so assuming that is true, is it still such a likely occurrence that I should stay away completely? I didn't get that impression at first, and while most would not choose it if given that choice, it didn't seem like a reckless decision. Now it appears that simply having a swing keel is a dangerous or irresponsible.

Is that the case? That would change my thinking completely.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 14:35:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by krobsten
 Thanks, folks.
...and probably winter storage at the same facility for the winter. I might investigate keeping it at my house this winter....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> It has a trailer? They're not a readily available as you might think. Without one, along with a substantial tow vehicle, you're not keeping it in your driveway.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ... is this really that dangerous even if something horrible happens to the keel? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Yes. If the keel lifting mechanism fails suddenly while the keel is raised, 1500 pounds of cast iron will drop suddenly and catastrophically!! That much weight falling suddenly will likely put a very big hole in the bottom of the boat. Thot could leave you minutes and not very many of them before the boat was gone. <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I would never do anything that far off shore, and I've been figuring the worst might be a problem and leak that would eventually sink the boat but that Stratford marine police would be able to take me off well before then. Am I being too careless in thinking this?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How far can you swim? 500 yards is a long way, particularly in choppy water.

I know that all of this is the worst case scenario and the likelihood of all this is very remote but, it is nonetheless real. The integrity of the keel lifting mechanism is paramount to the safety of you, your wife and your vessel. That cannot be overstated. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy the boat but it does mean that you must be certain that the keel is safe.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 15:43:51

We are not saying not to buy the boat but are trying to emphasize that a swing keel needs frequent attention. Catalina doesn't recommend them in salt water but many here have them and with proper maintenance will be trouble free. To have one and not trailer the boat is to me just a needless expense and changing the parts every 2 or so years I doubt is not cheep to have a Marina do it. Not an easy task for a do it yourself-er. These and many boats don't have floatation in them so in the event of a keel drop and the boat is holed it will sink like a rock. Also remember that Long Island Sound is in the high 40's right now and doesn't really warm up into the 65-70deg range until late June. Having a hole that large in the bottom wouldn't give you much time if any to put out a distress call nor would you last that long in the water before hypothermia. Remember that the Coasty's and Marine police are there to help IF they can but every sailor should always rely on themselves first. Someone on this site once said that you should never let your guard down while out on the water because its always trying to kill you.

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Lee Panza
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 15:55:20

Here are a few more thoughts.

Maintenance of the keel-lifting system (everything from the eyebolt to the winch) is indeed VERY important if you raise the keel more than a little distance. However, it's not really a problem at all if you don't raise it (D'uh). This may seem dumb to point out, but if your sailing style and local waters would allow you the option of a fixed keel, and if you don't intend to trailer the boat, the issue is essentially moot. You can put it out of your head until your next haul-out. In the meantime, the swinger acts as (someone else here used the term) a "cast-iron depth gage." If you ever do run aground you can give a few cranks on the winch and free yourself. No fixed keel could do that (except the high-tech canting ones). Plan on replacing everything (except, possibly, the winch) at your first haul-out. In the meantime, I wouldn't worry about it.

I wouldn't be as negative as Frank about the PO's MacGyvered steering link, as long as it can be quickly engaged or disengaged. In tight quarters at slow speeds you'll probably want to disengage it (and secure the rudder amidships, using a tiller-tamer or something similar so your other hand is free for the gear shifter), because you'll be operating the motor by hand and you'll probably want to steer with it as well. But as soon as you clear the dock, you'll find it nice to be able to steer with the tiller while sitting in a better position to look all around (and even stand up for a better view).

The bent foil on the furler may be a bit of trouble. If it isn't too badly bent (to the point that it cracks when you attempt to straighten it) you might be able to salvage it, but you'd have to work on the channel that the luff-rope slides up into. Even if you can unbend the foil to reasonably straight, the channel will likely be crimped, which could prevent hoisting the sail. An option to consider, if you can't obtain a replacement section, is to cut out the bent portion and have a machine shop fabricate another connector piece. You'd also probably have to have a sail shop alter one of your genoas for the reduced luff length, but you'd probably need to have some alteration done anyway to use it with a furling system (BTW, a partially furled sail is far less efficient upwind than a smaller hank-on). The costs for the custom connector and the sail alterations should be considerably less than the cost of an entirely new furling system, and many of us agree that roller furling is a nice luxury. In any case, you can use the boat indefinitely with the hank-ons; fixing and installing the furler is a project for the future.

I didn't notice if you had mentioned this, but is the VHF radio working? Check it! Regardless, one of your first "toys" should be a hand-held VHF, as a back-up. We don't have the option of just pulling off to the side of the road until we can flag someone down for help.

As Dave B. pointed out, the standing rigging will have to be replaced. No question here. You can read all about crevice corrosion of stainless steel; that's something far more urgent than the keel raising system, because there's no way to avoid straining those critical cables if the wind builds up unexpectedly or an unusually strong puff rips through, and there's no way to know how much safety margin you have at this point. Until you can get those changed, take it real easy.

Other than that, go for it; as soon as you close the deal you'll start a "to-do" list, and you'll find you'll have to set up priority categories for all the things you'll be adding to the list. Fixing up your own boat is part of the satisfaction of owning a boat (except, apparently, for those like your seller). You'll find it can be very rewarding to see your progress and to enjoy the benefits of your efforts at each stage.

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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 16:58:25

Damn....I've been out in the garage all day sanding teak and building a new radio box. (not about to defile my new steps putting the radio back under them)

And I miss all this.....

Boat looks like a well worn, well used, $3500 C25. Looks like it's in decent shape, just needs alot of elbow grease....something you could take out sailing right now and working on things as you go.

I'd only be really concerned with the condition of the swinger system. Even if the dude told me he had it inspected last year, if it were my boat I'd haul it and put new stuff in so I know the condition and age. Unless he can produce documentation of the system being replaced within a year or so.....

You get what you pay for. These boats, in pristine condition, are worth $8500 or so, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. So, you can spend $8500 and get a gem, or $3500 and put 5 grand into her....up to you.

I did the same thing last year though...I paid a little less for my boat, but I have a fixed keel....and have been sailing, enjoying, weekending, working, fixing, upgrading....for a year now, on a boat I paid cash for.....I do stuff for her as I have extra money. Sure, she's not the $10k beauty queen....but I love her and she's mine.

Looks to me like you've got the same thing in the works.....

Edited by - Joe Diver on 04/15/2012 16:59:56

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 17:42:59

Any old boat can be made to look good with a little elbow grease: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=117266

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krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 17:52:55

Many thanks for the clarifications, folks. John and Scott, I think I have a better understanding now of your position. Lee hit on something that really helped, which is that I don't plan on using the keel mechanism unless I trailer it. It shouldn't have any occasion to suddenly drop, in other words, before i get it out of the water for the next inspection. If it's down and there's a problem with the line, it won't have those same consequences, it seems?

Most importantly, can I ask again how often any of you have actually seen this happen, or known someone it happened to, or have any statistics on this occurring? I still can't really put the problem into perspective outside of saying, "This could be dangerous if this happens on the rare occasions you raise the swing keel." If it happens often enough where people have seen it or had it happen to someone they know, it would probably rule it out for me.

Thanks again for the input, guys, because as much as I like the boat I don't want to be careless. That said, I'd hate to lose a boat I like for something that might happen but doesn't happen very often at all.

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krobsten
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 18:00:06

Stu, believe me I've been thinking about that--the way I look at it, I don't have $8500 to get that boat. If I can get myself on the water and add money as I go (knowing it was done the right way, no shortcuts, etc.) then it seems like a better way to go. Stu, thanks for posting that link--I bookmarked it for when i get to that point!

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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 18:18:32

Keel drop with damage has happened and if you search for it you'll find accounts of it. It is not that common though, so don't let fear of that sway your decision. Properly maintained the swingers are great boats!

Didn't Cate have a keel drop in Mysterious?

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OJ
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Response Posted - 04/15/2012 : 18:24:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by krobsten
 . . . get myself on the water and add money as I go (knowing it was done the right way, no shortcuts, etc.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'd rather purchase a boat that suffered from neglect (not abuse) than one where I have to undo some DPOs amateur maintenance.

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