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szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2012 : 19:09:27

Hi folks,

Since last year I've been talking about going single handed from Oakville to Kingston. Since over the winter I got new motor, furler and new sail, I've decided that it will be this year.

However...... something very spontaneous came up. My colleague's from work husband bought Nonsuch 26 and needs to bring it to Toronto this weekend (from Kingston). They remembered about me and asked me to skipper the boat for them as they're new to sailing.

Plan is to leave on Friday early afternoon and based on my calculations we should be able to do it in 34 hours (assuming we'll keep on average 4.5kt).

Unfortunately wind is not in our favour as on Friday it will be NW and Sat W.

Plan is to head out from Kingston and head towards False Duck Island. Then we'll continue along the long point until we pass Petre Point. After that we can head towards Toronto (we'll see based on wind direction of course).

My plan is to do 3 hour shifts starting on Friday at 9 pm until 6 am. From 6 am, once sun comes up, we'll do more adhoc shifts. We'll reassess the situation on Sat at 2 pm and we'll see how far we got and how much further. If we're too tired we'll head back in to closest marina and we'll continue next weekend. I like pushing limits - but safety first!

Is there anything else I should be considering?

I'm not new to night sailing on Lake Ontario and I've done overnighters in Caribbean. My only concerns is getting used to sailing nonsuch - as my experience is limited.

Daniel
Shy Tuna
1985 C-25: SR/FK/TR #4838

Edited by - szymek on 05/09/2012 20:05:14

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 06:35:19

I'm seeing 160 miles. divided by 4 = 40 hours, and I think it's a little further so 40 hours is optimistic unless the wind gods are with you. I'd research the Marinas along the way. I guess if you love to push limits that's great but I'd make it a 3 dayr' and stay at a couple Marinas, get a nice dinner out, etc

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 07:17:22

The Nonsuch 26 is a big, stout boat with one big sail that's easy to reef... She'll take care of you. Assuming a diesel, and suspecting some algae crud in the fuel tank of this new-to-him boat, take a few spare fuel filters. If you get into some serious chop on that big lake, it could shake up that crud and stall the engine just when you need it.

I'm glad you're not pressing against a schedule or deadline for completing the delivery. Stay flexible, and let conditions dictate.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 07:19:08

Never underestimate how the wind can mess up your plans. Allow at least a 20% time cushion. Take more gas than you think you will need. Identify at least 2 more marinas than you think you will need. Pack one extra change of clothes than you think you will use, especially warm clothing. Damp air can feel extra cold at night. Ditto DaveR above.
Nice boat from pics I've seen. Catboat, wishbone rig, twice as heavy as a C25, about the same draft, diesel inboard. (Make sure they show you where the water strainer is and how to clean it.)

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/10/2012 07:32:10

JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 07:48:24

I second Dave's concern about sediment in the diesel tank. Has the new owner spent any time on the boat so far? Has it undergone a local "sea trial" with a short night time sail? Can he empty and clean out the diesel fuel tank to prevent the common problem Dave mentioned?

Have you considered the options for your course? For example, what about motor-sailing on the safer "inside route"? I found 3 comments from similar trips posted on [url="http://groups.google.com/group/rec.boats.cruising/browse_thread/thread/c0e1751ba36dfe62/414397e8d77f148f%3Fq%3D%2522Marina%2BEarly%2522%23414397e8d77f148f&ei=iGwTS6eaOpW8Qpmqic0O&sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNHXQvipZhAURYwJYGoQySu5aFe-MQ"]this website:[/url] in 2001:

Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising
From: Tony Cook <searoom(spamout)@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:10:48 GMT
Local: Thurs, Feb 8 2001 11:10 am
Subject: Re: Kingston to Toronto - Local Knowledge?

Don't assume the wind will be westerly all the time! There's many a
period of solid easterly winds on Lake Ontario in the summer and they
can hang in for days (and be quite cool).

Last time we sailed from Toronto to Kingston and return, we had more
or less close reaches in both directions - very fortunate and
somewhat unusual, although the westerly trip included a nasty line
squall off Presquile with nowhere to go but through the squall - but
that's Lake Ontario in summer! We did not attempt the outside route
as that would probably have meant an overnighter and we were simply
enjoying a leisurely holiday cruise.

It's a pretty long leg from Cobourg to Kingston, with liitle in the
way of safe harbours on the way. That's why the inside route is so
popular, with plenty of choice of harbours, good sailing (other than
Presquile Bay and the Murray Canal - although both are interesting).
One jump from Toronto to Kingston is ambitious if your boat is not a
performer. We had a 28' boat that certainly would go to weather and we
were very lucky to average 4 to 5 knots at any time. July on Lake
Ontario can be everything from dead calm (hence Slumber Bay in
Toronto) to rather impressive squalls and thunderstorms (usually later
in the day, so cruisers tend to start early and get into a marina
early). Be prepared for a significant amount of motoring.

If you do go outside, be prepared for some long tacks out into Lake
Ontario if, as you say, your boat doesn't go to windward very well.
And there are plenty of hazards to the south of Prince Edward county
and Presquile, so you're well advised to stay well out.

> John Graham wrote:

> > Planning to cruise up to Toronto from Kingston this July. Been perusing
> > the "Ports" cruising guide and I think we'll go upbound thru the Bay of
> > Quinte and the Murray Canal and coast along the Ontario Shore. I would like
> > to return in one jump using the outside route. I'm assuming the the wind
> > will be westerly nearly all the time, hence my idea to take our time and
> > make small jumps upbound and then do the long slide downwind. On the
> > downbound trip I'm going to try to time it so we go past Presque Isle in the
> > daylight hours, as I am not keen on approaching a low lee shore in the dark.

> > The boat is a 26' steel sloop that does not go to windward particularly
> > well, so I'm figuring about 4-5 Kt as far as speed goes.

> > Anyone taken a similar trip, or have any advice? I'm wondering if there are
> > any local wind conditions I can take advantage of to lessen the pounding of
> > going to windward? Thanx in advance.
> > John.

Martin Reid
Feb 9 2001, 8:42 am

Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising
From: Martin Reid <mkr...@attglobal.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:42:12 -0500
Local: Fri, Feb 9 2001 8:42 am
Subject: Re: Kingston to Toronto - Local Knowledge?

We have done it only the outside way and had quite an enjoyable sail. It is a long haul from Cobourg around. We stopped in Long Point Harbour for the night. Very tight and shallow entrance but a nice stop. I would make sure the water depth is adequate before you decide to stop. We were in a C&C 29. Main Duck island is supposed to be a nice stop although I haven't been there. I would try and make Presqu'ile your jump off point. You will likely have westerly winds but I wouldn't count on it.

Martin Reid

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 08:08:36

Here is some more info about a race for boats suitable for offshore sailing, including a comment about "boat-breaking shoals". I assume you have paper charts for each of these areas of the north shore of Lake Ontario, in addition to a working depth gauge and 2 or more GPS units with the same charts.

Posted 29 April 2011 - 01:40 AM

http://collinsbaymarina.com/cbyc-new/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/longpointposter-page1.jpeg

Seeing the continent-wide increase in the popularity of distance racing, and the lack of local distance courses, the Collins Bay Yacht Club has initiated the Long Point Challenge. This 107 mile course will be contested on the last weekend of June, placing it as an ideal warm-up for the Lake Ontario 300 for Eastern Lake Ontario sailors.

The course will see everything from protected flat water to wide open, potentially strong conditions, combined with geographic features and shipping lanes. It will be a true test where the outcome will be defined by the skill of the sailors in forming the best strategic course for their particular vessel.

The race will begin and end in Collins Bay, five miles west of Kingston Harbour. The course will see crews leaving False Ducks Island to the west, then continuing to the Lake Ontario Weather Buoy (ODAS 45012) and return. This course provides several strategic options, including leaving Amherst Island to port or starboard, staying in relatively protected Prince Edward Bay or offshore on the way to Long Point (Prince Edward Point), and then again staying inshore or offshore towards the turning mark. For the sake of safety, race management has elected to keep boats east of False Duck Island, as there are boat-breaking shoals that must be navigated between it and Long Point.

The race is open to all boats that are suitable for an offshore race. We welcome double-handed and fully crewed boats, monohull or multihull. Race management is recommending the ISAF OSR Category 3 safety requirements. Call-ins will not be required.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 08:19:41

It sounds like a wonderful opportunity with a good boat. I agree with the others that you can't rely on 4.5 kts for an average.

Before you leave the dock, be sure to tuck a reef in the sail and then shake it out, to be sure you know how to do it, if necessary, while underway. Make sure all the crewmembers participate, so you won't be the only one who knows how to do it.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 09:24:57

Is it you plan to leave Kingston early Friday afternoon? I don't know how familiar you are with the skinny water near Ducks Point but I wouldn't want to be there at night unless I was very familiar with the neighborhood.

I also think you're time estimate is a bit optimistic. If you're not able to stretch your arrival time, you might be tempted to do things you wouldn't otherwise do.

It sounds like a great adventure. Enjoy the trip. Bring your woolies, it'll be cold at night.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 09:59:04

Thanks for all the comments.

This boat is in above average condition. Probably one of the best conditions on the market right now. It has gone through numerous upgrades including brand new diesel last year.

I am getting ready for cold and damp weather – not too concerned about it.

In terms of sediment in the diesel tank – very good question. I’ve posed this question to the new owner.
The new owner is in Kingston right now getting familiar with the boat and getting walk through everything by former owner – including sailing.

I’ve ran into bit of hick up – I just found out that the boat does not have a chartplotter. Quite a bit of setback – I thought I saw it in the listing of equipment. I do have paper charts (Richardson), and I also have bit of an old school Marine GPS (Garmin 12) which does not have charts, but you plot your route using waypoints. I’ve used it multiple times all over western side of the lake, but there was no shoals I had to worry about. Paper charts and the marine GPS were my back up. I’m in a bit of scramble to find a chartplotter – my chartplotter is hard wired to the panel so I don’t want to go through hassle of taking the wiring apart.

I do not intend on going through the Bay of Quinte. Plan is to go south of long point. I plan on heading towards false duck island and then head along long point till we pass Petre Point and then we’re in wide open. That way we’re avoiding all shoals.

My plan is to leave Kingston at 1 pm at the latest. So that should give us time to get past long point before sun goes down. Now I’m not sure whether I should proceed with the marine gps and paper charts as my main equipment for navigation.

Edited by - szymek on 05/10/2012 13:22:50

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 13:42:08

Do you have an iPad or iPhone? You can download charting software relatively inexpensively to use for your trip. A waterproof case for it and you're largely set. Probably the same for Android phones/tablets, I'm just not as familiar with them.

There are also the free charts from USCG and several different plotting software packages available for free or again relatively inexpensively. You can interface your GPS 12 with them on your laptop. I've got USB cables for both types of GPS 12 if you can't find them. I'm willing to loan them to you for the trip if you decide to go this route.

I considered loaning you my Garmin 276C chart plotter for the journey, but I couldn't even find the proprietary map chip you'd need for sale anywhere. It's an older generation GPS, but it works well for what we do.

Good luck coming up with solution.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 17:40:25

This evening was bit tough. I had to make the final decision whether this passage is a go or no-go.

I've been monitoring the wind since yesterday morning. Wind will be western Friday and Saturday. Which means we would have 130 NM right into the wind - which means motoring if we want to make it in one shot.

So taking into consideration wind direction (W), wind speed (12 - 15 kt with gusts up to 25), waves (1.5m), going against the current and into the waves - I made a final decision to postpone this trip.

I'm assuming that even motoring we would be doing 4 kt max (given factors above) and it would be rather rough sail.

I hope the new owner does not think I'm a "chicken" but if I'm to skipper the boat I'm taking responsibility for his well being as well - so I need to make a responsible decision.

However, we will still go tomorrow bright and early... if anything just to familiarize ourselves with the boat and get ready for next attempt. But if weather changes we'll head out and we'll get as far as we can. Like Stinkpotter has suggested - I will let the conditions dictate and I will be flexible.

Edited by - szymek on 05/10/2012 17:41:25

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2012 : 19:09:17

Glad to hear you're being cautious... You're taking on a big responsibility there, for someone else's boat and for the safety of all involved... I wouldn't embark on that voyage without some time on the water in that vessel, especially getting very familiar with the sail handling and boat handling characteristics--the Nonsuch wishbone cat rig is a bit different from the sloops most of us are used to. You want to make your early mistakes close to home port. Then you can head out around the point and down that long, somewhat inhospitable shoreline.

Most (if not all) cruisers I know agree that when they're trying to actually get somewhere, they end up under power close to 80% of the time. Either the wind is on the nose (tacking increases your distance by >50%), or there is none, or whatever... That's why I cautioned about the diesel fuel and then John P suggested learning how to change the filter in the dark. This stuff happens, and it happens most often on longer distance voyages when the boat gets tossed around a little. I know several people who've had to change diesel fuel filters in a nasty seaway.

We'll be pulling for a safe passage!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/10/2012 19:09:40

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2012 : 03:57:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 
So taking into consideration wind direction (W), wind speed (12 - 15 kt with gusts up to 25), waves (1.5m), going against the current and into the waves - I made a final decision to postpone this trip.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had to make the same decision wrt my own trip down the lake this summer.

I stopped in at the Rigging Shoppe yesterday to talk about a chip for my chartplotter - their comment was not to bother - Lk Ontario is far less complicated than Lk Simcoe, and I wouldn't need one if I had good paper charts and how to use them.

I found that interesting.

I have heard that nighttime navigation in the kingston area has been greatly complicated by the windfarms. Too many flashing lights to know what you are looking at.

I have also been advised that going from Trenton to Whitby in a single hop is risky. Apparently prevailing winds are against you and storms have a nasty habit of blowing through at just the wrong time. Besides, the Cobourg Jail (restaurant) has really good beer within walking distance of the harbour.

The advice I got was to go Trenton - Murray Canal - Cobourg overnight - Whitby, and to go to Port Hope if I was making better than expected time and decided to skip Cobourg.

Of course this is all hearsay since I have no firsthand experience on Lk Ontario.

Being that your friend also has no experience, you might want to be sure its tethers at all times during the night sail, and check that there are strobes for the PFDs.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/11/2012 06:34:38

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2012 : 06:15:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...Being thet your friend also has no experience, you might want to be sure its tethers at all times during the night sail, and check that there are strobes for the PFDs.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good points. As I think about it more (and re-read the thread)... A crew of two, one with night sailing experience, the other with no sailing experience... (Two people with no sailing experience do not make this a crew of three.) If you leave your friend alone for a few hours at night, and the wind shifts (without him noticing), you could literally end up on the beach--or half way to New York State. If you instruct him/her to stay on the GPS course, s/he might run you into a freighter while watching your little screen. If it were me, I'd keep the night sailing part out of this trip.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/11/2012 06:26:44

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 05/11/2012 : 06:40:41

Out of curiosity...

How would you go about checking that the batteries are up to the loads required for lights on the passage? Just check them with a multi-meter and hope the AH rating still holds true? Replace them since you don't know how well maintained they are? Top them up and hope the electrolyte is still good? Carry the spare running lights you can buy at Cdn Tire and a bunch of AA batteries? Maybe all of the above?

I would be nervous about trusting the lights and battery on a boat I don't know on a lake with commercial traffic. On Simcoe (where we are right now) its a little less risky since the fishermen go home at night, but Lk Ont. has 24 hour traffic. To me this is a bigger issue than an engine. Without an engine you sit and bob until the wind comes up, then beg forgiveness of the boss when you get back to the office a day late. Without lights, no one knows you are sitting there waiting for wind, until they hear the crunch.

Professional delivery skippers deal with these things all the time, so I guess you can just check the batteries and go or something.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2012 : 13:15:47

Quick update:

We decided not to leave on Friday due to strong wind, wave, western wind. However, we went with the previous owner for a quick sail to get familiarized with the boat. then we spent the rest of the day exploring the area on the river close to Kingston. It was beautiful and the boat handled super nicely. We practiced reefing, shaking out the reef, etc....

During the exploring on Friday with just paper charts, I decided that we shouldn't do this without a chartplotter. New addition to the boat is CP390i. :-)

On Saturday we planned to go downstream and explore the islands even further. However, when i woke up I've decided that we should go towards the Ducks and get familiarized with the shoals and the area. All day wind was approx 15kt and by the time we got to the ducks in dropped to about 10kt. Strong wind warning has been removed. So we decided to keep on pushing to nearest marina around Prince Edward County - Which was Wellington. Me thinking of everything ahead of time i've decided it would be good to call the marine and ensure there are transient slips and channel is safe for 5 foot draft. Turned out that it's not! So we had to push to Brighton. We ended up sailing through the night and arrived in Brighton at 4:30 am. All in all we've spent solid 8 hours sailing and about 11 hours motor sailing.

It was amazing sail. The new owner has learned a lot about his boat. Through most of the night we ended up motor sailing otherwise we would never make it even by the morning as wind turned to NW. We even went through dropping and raising the sail in the middle of night - i figured it will be good practice for the new owner.

It was beautiful experience for both of us. He had excellent intro to sailing and for me it was bit of new experience sailing catboat. Catboats are really nice to handle and point into wind a lot better than i expected. However if I had a choice, I prefer sailing sloops.

Now I plan on another hop from Brighton to Toronto - but weather will dictate the next steps. We'll leave as early as tomorrow or over the next week.

Just my quick summery of the trip. And thanks to everyone for your feedback and comments! everything was taken into account!

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2012 : 13:43:36

Nice! Keep the updates coming!

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2012 : 18:48:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 I’ve ran into bit of hick up – I just found out that the boat does not have a chartplotter. Quite a bit of setback – I thought I saw it in the listing of equipment. I do have paper charts (Richardson), and I also have bit of an old school Marine GPS (Garmin 12) which does not have charts, but you plot your route using waypoints. I’ve used it multiple times all over western side of the lake, but there was no shoals I had to worry about. Paper charts and the marine GPS were my back up. I’m in a bit of scramble to find a chartplotter – my chartplotter is hard wired to the panel so I don’t want to go through hassle of taking the wiring apart.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While I love my big ass Garmin, a handheld and a compass and a chart is all you need. Sure beats what I learned to sail with in the old days. Sailors are getting soft. Some friends were doing the Newport Bermuda and complained that they were struck by lightning, thereby killing all the wired electronics. "Yeah, we had to dead reckon all of the way!" "Really! How did you do that?" I inquired. "Well we set a compass course and then used a handheld to verify our position on the chart every six hours."

Uh, yeah, that there ain't no dead reckoning kids. Dead reckoning is compass heading and speed log and a watch alone. Even a sextant is an aid to navigation... I shudder to think what would happen if suddenly all the satelites went dead at once. Nobody knows how to drive sans GPS anymore. Even big cargo ships... Rumore has it that they are no longer required to carry paper charts.

Getting a fix from a handheld when in sticky places will more than suffice. But my ancestors came to Amerika long before Columbus with nothing but the sky to go on...

sten - the other curmudgeon

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 05/16/2012 : 03:16:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
Dead reckoning is compass heading and speed log and a watch alone...

sten - the other curmudgeon
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And you'd be surprised how close you can get with just these basic tools.

Szymek, good luck with your trip, take your time and enjoy it. (and keep the updates coming)

Edited by - TCurran on 05/16/2012 03:16:51

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