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C22 kick-up rudder on a C25?

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JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/16/2012 : 14:34:51

I'm anxiously awaiting my first official sail of the year, which I hope will be this weekend. In trying to think things through, one nagging thought is that, when sailing in shallow water, I'm afraid I might run the rudder aground (and rip it off). I've seen a few modified C25 rudders that allowed the rudder to kick up, but the lazy part of me says why not buy one that's already meant to kick up? Of course, the frugal (cheap) side says that a new Ida one costs WAY too much for an acquisition this season. So, I've found (but haven't purchased) a used C22 kick-up rudder that's in a "reasonable" price range, but I haven't been able to find a listing of the dimensions or comparison of the size differences between the rudders. I know the C22 kick-up rudder on CD is listed as 65" over-all length. Jumping the pictures back and forth between the C22 and C25 kick-up rudders, it looks like they are basically the same width, but that the C25 is about 4" longer, which then makes me a little leery about the C22 rudder if the boat is heeling significantly. Has anyone tried a C22 kick-up rudder on a C25?

- Jim
Formerly of 1984 C25 named Dragon Wing

NOTE: In my case, PLEASE don't confuse stars/number of posts with actual knowledge. On any topic.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2012 : 15:59:17

The rudder is also part of the underwater lift profile with the keel, not just for steering. It would probably work, just not as well. Incidentally, my experience has been that the boat just rounds up when the rudder comes out of the water from heel.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 05/16/2012 15:59:45

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2012 : 16:44:21

HMMM...maybe I'll call CD to get the difference in measurements.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2012 : 21:47:31

With the way the C22 rudders are made, the distance between the gudgeons may also be critical. It is exactly 12" on my C22. Can't remember what it is on the C-25's. Good luck.

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3462 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2012 : 03:43:14

Jim,

I bet it's hard waiting for that first sail. I guess I lost track of things but given all your postings, I figured you were already sailing by now. Considering a kick-up rudder...Well...At least you have something to keep yourself occupied until your big day. I would not go forward with any kick-up rudder mods or buying a new rudder until you get sailing. Is your depthfinder/fishfinder in good order ? My thought is that you will be allright without a kick-up rudder. In most instances (not all), your keel is going to hit bottom first simply because it is forward of the rudder. If your region has a muddy bottom, then even if the rudder does hit bottom, it is likely the inches it is below the keel will not likely put that much stress on it as the rudder is relatively thin and will cut into the initial soft mud/weeds. But your depthfinder/fishfinder should keep you out of most of your troubles. Then again...I'm thinking back to your first postings and I believe it was you regarding the decision at which marina in NJ...and you had charts showing the shallow areas...so...not minimizing your concerns but just that better to see how things really pan out after you start sailing a bit.

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/17/2012 03:46:48

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2012 : 10:00:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...given all your postings, I figured you were already sailing by now... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, I ask a lot of questions! LOL

You also have to keep in mind that many of my posts aren't substantive.

Your point about not doing anything with the rudder until we're out and about for a bit is a very good one, and is likely to be my course of action. I still prefer to get background information (car dealers hate when I'm a buyer) before I take many actions. I also have the scary image of my rudder floating away behind me in the back of my mind. But your points about the depth finder and the muck/mud help mitigate that some.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2012 : 11:08:55

Our experience was that the keel hit first, then spun the boat, driving the rudder into the rocks. Just sayin'.

Be sure your cotterpin in the top pintal is a soft metal that gives before the rudder breaks off.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2012 : 11:33:03

I was launched this past Saturday and due to silting around the travel lift dock, it was also my first soft grounding of the season. The sailboat who launched ahead of me got stuck for about twenty minutes as he was doing everything he could to power through to deeper water (heeling/rocking the boat, motoring with sails up, wiggling, etc) until he finally hit deeper water. Watching him with his struggles didn't exactly give me a warm and fuzzy as we both have the same draft, but he cut too close to the shallows so I thought I'd be okay. Anyway, I was launched, but I was going awfully slow at half to three quarter throttle and after cutting through the muck for about 75 feet, I finally hit deeper water. All's well, that ends well.

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Tomas Kruska
Admiral

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Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2012 : 12:06:25

Just thinking about adding stainless steel shoe/shield to the front of my keel.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2012 : 13:50:17

Ah, Who needs bottom paint on the keel anyway...

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/18/2012 : 17:52:28

A good grounding in sand will scape the keel clean.

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Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2012 : 06:50:55

...well I cleaned my keel VERY WELL yesterday then. :O)

...oh and on the FK: The standard rudder was unscathed. Even with the keel dug in DEEP. We used a sheet at the masthead to heel to push off

Edited by - Ape-X on 05/21/2012 06:52:10

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2012 : 07:15:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimGo
 ...Jumping the pictures back and forth between the C22 and C25 kick-up rudders, it looks like they are basically the same width, but that the C25 is about 4" longer, which then makes me a little leery about the C22 rudder if the boat is heeling significantly...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The C-22 hull is only 4" narrower than the C-25, and it's broader at the transom. I'm not up to doing the geometry calcs right now, but it seems to me the effect of heeling isn't enough difference for 4" of blade length to matter. Just make sure the blade stays fully down. Ida used to use a shear-pin and (I think) now uses a gas strut--what does the C-22 rudder use?

BTW, I recall Arlyn Stewart (or somebody) modifying a C-250 kick-up rudder so the blade could be pulled slightly forward of the pivot line, giving it some "balance."

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/21/2012 07:18:11

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2012 : 08:17:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 ...oh and on the FK: The standard rudder was unscathed. Even with the keel dug in DEEP.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Very good...I take some comfort in the fact that my fin keel will hopefully let me know about the granite boulder that pops up out of no where before it makes contact with my rudder. On my old swinger, this wasn't the case as the rudder was deeper than the raised keel and the first thing to hit bottom. Fortunately, I had a kick up rudder on that boat, but if it were a fixed blade, I'm sure it would have been ripped from the transom.

The thing about the kick up rudder on my old boat was you had to be careful as the kicked up rudder could contact the prop, and it had the scars to prove it.

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