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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Installing C25 Pop Top Power Lift Kit

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65Roses
1st Mate

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26 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/22/2012 : 06:38:35

I have looked through previous topics and didn't see any specific discussion on installing the power lift kit, recommendations, experiences with the product.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 07:33:57

What do you want to know? drill a dozen holes, put in the gas struts and mounts. There may be a photo tutorial in teh Tech Tips section. The instructions from CD advise Dropping the mast to install the kit, but many have found that X-bracing with blocks after raising the top will allow you to get height to install the struts.

The instructions from CD are VERY good. I still have the manual kicking around someplace.

You may be able to buy the parts to DIY this from an auto parts place but no guarantees on rustproofness that way. You need 15" struts. Details here: http://littleboatiris.blogspot.ca/2012/03/strut-your-stuff.html

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 07:52:01

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 07:58:09

Search "gas strut"

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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957 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 08:29:21

Struts can always be found if they rust in a year or 5... The brackets can easily be made out of aluminum angle.

Or, buy a mount here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gas-Strut-Support-Spring-Lift-Shock-Arm-UNI-Mount-Ball-Stud-Pin-Angle-Bracket-/320894614514?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ab6cf3bf2&vxp=mtr

15" Struts: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2ea-20lb-RV-Truck-Van-Columbia-Gas-Strut-Shock-Spring-Lift-Prop-Rod-15-20-15in-/320895906566?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ab6e2f306&vxp=mtr

Geez, you can put this whole kit together for about $40 and no machine work. And they're charging $150???

Edited by - NautiC25 on 05/22/2012 08:35:20

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 08:58:13

I don't get that.. seems like it would be easy enough to add a strap clamp around the strut in order to get the strut compressed to install.

??

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 09:05:48

Yeah Nauti - similar to the impression I got after paying for the kit from CD.

Ray that would likely work, but the weight of the top will do the work for you if you don't have access to the clamps. Also, for alignment, it works well to get the top up and see how close to vertical the struts will be when mounted in a given location.

For the lift power of the struts, my thought is that ANY lift is better than no lift, and SWMBO really couldn't close the top with teh CD lifts in place. I may have some negative rake on them due to the install being off by a couple degrees though. In any case, they work well with the auto place struts.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 09:10:40

65Roses
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 10:17:59

I was just looking for guidance from those that have installed these. In reading the installation manual it seemed more intense than I would have guessed. I plan to install mine over the weekend so I can report back on how it went. Thanks to all for your comments.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 10:40:00

Please.. let me know.. I'm lookin at it also..

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 11:14:41

Well 65 Roses, I was able to do it in about 3 beers. For anyone with a degree of proficiency with powertools, it should be a beer-and-a-half job.

Really not very difficult at all once you get things lined up. The reason the CD manual is so intense is because they break the job into such tiny pieces that it looks like a lot of work. The most important bit is getting your alignment figured out. After that its just make hole, insert screw.

The part that isn't included in the CD kit is about using thickened epoxy to seal the holes. If you opt to do this it becomes a 2-3 day job by default. Day 1 you drill and do a mock assembly, redrill oversized and fill with the epoxy. Let set overnight. Day 2 - drill it all out again to proper size, then assemble permanently. The pop-top is plywood cored, so this is likely worthwhile if you are able to do it.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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1218 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 11:40:02

My boat had the kit installed when I bought it.

Raising the top was effortless. Unclamp the dogs and a gentle touch would raise it. Bringing it down took a little more effort.

However....the starboard side strut broke. The plastic tips that are the socket, for the metal ball mounted to the bracket...the tips are cheap ass plastic and broke inside. Both ends of them. Junk, IMHO.

So, I only have one strut on one side. A little awkward to raise and lower the top but not unmanageable in any way. I should probably hit the auto store or RV store and get a replacement strut......just haven't done it yet.

Edited by - Joe Diver on 05/22/2012 11:40:25

Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 12:06:19

Joe, get 2. Trust me.

Edited by - on

smshield28
Deckhand

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15 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 13:07:54

How many lbs should the struts be? I'm seeing everything from the 20# ones above from ebay, to the 90# ones referenced on the Macgregor forums for their pop tops.

The admiral would very much like a gas shock kit installed, but I can't afford the $140. I can afford $40.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 13:23:18

I don't know SMShield - Someone with a CD kit should take a look at theirs, I remember peeling off the CD stickers and there was a secret code underneath now knowing that the 15 on it was the length, I would hazard a guess that one of teh other numbers would have been the thrust. I recall there being an 85 which could be thrust, but my memory is foggy and it was a long time ago.

<EDIT - DELETE MISINFORMATION>

A quick google brought up this site which has the struts in 15" lengths with incremental thrust - anyone up to weighing the top and seeing what it takes to lift it? http://www.autopartsbylou.com/lift-supports-products.php?ext=15&type=uni&x=10&y=10

Edited by - Prospector on 01/08/2013 14:11:25

NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 13:35:55

I would guess between 50-70lbs. So getting (2) 20lb struts would probably be the best bet. You definitely don't want to go over.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 13:51:26

From CD's website:

"Two custom high pressure gas springs counterbalance the weight of the pop top and sliding hatch. The initial lift required to raise the pop top is reduced from as much as 70 pounds to around 20. The kit also provides a redundant method of holding the pop top in its open position. If the stock latch slips down, the springs hold the hatch forward against the mast."

Sounds to me like around 25lbs per side??? (The replacement clip is the mast clip - you can buy it separately)

I just called CD tech support - they tell me it is 125 lbs per side. That sounds like a lot of lift. So we've whittled this down to:

125 lbs of lift
15" extended length
??? Compressed length

Looks like one of these items:
(Plastic ends, 130 lbs lift) http://www.autopartsbylou.com/lift-supports-product.php?item=49028
(Steel ends, 130 lbs lift) http://www.autopartsbylou.com/lift-supports-product.php?item=49028S10
(Plastic ends, 80 lbs lift) http://www.autopartsbylou.com/lift-supports-product.php?item=60484
(Steel ends, 80 lbs lift) http://www.autopartsbylou.com/lift-supports-product.php?item=60484S10

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 14:25:37

Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 14:27:20

Also, if you face the same predicament that Joe and I did - the plastic clips breaking off the bottom of the strut, CD will sell just the push-in clip. To get it to me in Canada it was goingeto be around $10 - $15. I don't remember exactly.

OK, I gotta go home. Thats enough sleuthing for one day.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 14:28:12

Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 14:33:38

It gets better!!

Here is a pair of 120 lbs struts for $24.95. Woo Hoo. Just enough lighter than CD's that you will be able to close the top, but everything else matches. I might buy a pair and upgrade from the autoparts ones I have now.

http://www.maxumhardware.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=346

Joe - can you peel the red CD sticker off your strut and give us the three number code on the silver label underneath? It should confirm what the tech guy said on the phone, and that link above gives the decoder for the strut. I checked my Princess Auto strut and it has no info.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 14:41:22

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 15:24:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...I just called CD tech support - they tell me it is 125 lbs per side. That sounds like a lot of lift...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The geometry of the system is such that the vertical "lifting" force will be less than the angled force of the strut--by quite a bit at the beginning when the strut is near horizontal.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/22/2012 15:26:12

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 15:53:08

I think my strut is broken. I can not move it at all. At 120# though, I may not be able to unless it's hooked up.

How can I get the replacement ends from CD? Have a P/N?

BTW, when it broke and popped off, it did so violently. Could have been dangerous.

Silver Sticker says:

HARCO Group Inc.
Phone: 215-938-8538 Fax: 215-938-8532
L/N: 290308 P/N: GSB-15V-120#
High Pressure Do Not Puncture

Edited by - on

Prospector
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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 16:10:52

15V sounds likie extended length, 120# looks like lift force. I wonder what GSB means. "Good Sail boat" maybe??

Thats the same sticker I remember.

Mine broke during assembly. Not a beer related failure. The plastic ends are just cheap.

My new struts can be compressed by hand. Now that I see how cheap it is to replace these, I think I'll order a pair.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 16:11:27

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 16:47:55

Ok, now I'm confused about the lifting force. So, you guys just go ahead and order it, and I'll wait to hear back from you on the results.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 05/22/2012 16:48:30

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 18:28:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 Ok, now I'm confused about the lifting force...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">When you begin to lift the pop-top, the struts, with a total of 240# of pushing force, are mostly pushing horizontally--only a small component of that force is vertical to help you lift. That component increases as the top goes up, so it probably gets easier as the top goes up. If the strut forces only totaled the weight of the top, you would probably be pushing 90% of the weight of the top for most of the first 30 degrees or so.

The net of it is, CD seems to have found the right force (if not the right connecting hardware), and people who have installed their kit seem to be satisfied.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wonder what GSB means. "Good Sail boat" maybe??<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think GSB is the brand name of the strut.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/22/2012 18:32:13

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 18:41:55

Well, I actually understood that part. It's the upper part that I don't understand. If there's now 240lbs of force in the upper end of the extension, then you'd need a tub of lard like myself to get it back down until it's horizontal enough to let go. It sounded like a complete trade off for either providing upward force without them, or a lot of downward force to put it back down with them.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 18:50:12

So go back to vector forces in Grade 11 Physics. If you drew a vector force diagram of the opened top, you would have an arrow 240 units long pointing straight up. Add any horizontal force to the diagram and teh top will show motion at an angle. With the 240 lbs of vertical force you do need some oomph to get things started moving, but since the shocks can only exert force in one plane, any force in a direction other than up and down will not be overcome by the shocks.

Since you have 240 lbs of force in the vertical plane, it will take very little force in the horizontal plane to move the top. As teh force rotates, the full lift of teh struts doesn't ever really kick in. It should be easy to compress them. The trouble is that if your install is at all beyond 90° with teh top up, you do have to overcome that full force, in the same plane as the shocks, before the top begins to descend.

Thats where I think a slightly lighter strut might be better.

Edit to add: For those installing these kits, aim for the struts to describe 85° of an arc rather than a full 90°and you will not have the difficulty in lowering, but you better be darn sure your mast clip is working right since you will never have full upwards support either.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/22/2012 19:42:24

NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 05/22/2012 : 19:16:10

Oh, I get it now.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 05/22/2012 19:16:49

redeye
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Response Posted - 05/23/2012 : 05:14:27

<< instructions from CD are VERY good. I still have the manual kicking around someplace. >>

SO what does it say.. wanna sell your copy .. wanna copy your copy..

I don't get raising the top more or removing the mast to fully charge the struts.. Seems like you could just as easily compress them to install.

What am I missing.. ( don't say it... Other than a brain )

Oh.. I guess I'm gonna be missing another $100 bucks cause I want Catalina Direct to stay in business.

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