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Possibly More Battery Issues

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/29/2012 : 19:17:28

I'm starting a new post on my battery issues.

Went to the boat today and installed my new Interstate batteries. Dealer said Interstate had just rotated the batteries out a couple of weeks earlier. Interstate batteries do NOT have a mfg date on them, just the little buttons you pop out when you purchase them.

Hooked up my Xantrex Truecharge 10TP battery charger and expected it to hit the batteries with the full 10 amp charge for a little while and then drop into the 1a - 8a mode since the batteries were "fresh". Charger was on the batteries at least two hours and it never came out of the 10 amp mode.

Soooo... Either one or both batteries are dead Orrr my charger is not working properly. It's not mounted in the most ideal location for ventilation and it was hot. The batteries seemed cool.

I did turn the charger off and tried some lights and they were nice an bright.

Is it possible the batteries just need to be on the charger longer?

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 19:30:14

Call Xantrex. Their products are not top shelf, but the tech support is reasonable.

They may suggest a test or something. I was surprised to learn a few things about mine from them. I also have a tru-charge 10 - but I think it has different letters on it. 10XP I think.

Looks like its a 10 TB:

Edited by - Prospector on 05/29/2012 19:40:51

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2012 : 20:07:02

That's the same model I have.

Looking in the manual online they have a formula that will give an approximate charge time based on the amount of discharge. Even using 15% discharge which might be plausible for batteries that have been sitting a few weeks? it should take 3.2 hours so maybe I just didn't leave it on long enough. 50% discharge is over 10 hours!

Also read that you're supposed to have a minimum of 4" air space around the unit for proper cooling and it has an automatic over-temp shutdown. Mine was not shutting down apparently but I bet it was close to overheating. There is zero clearance on the top side of my charger so I guess moving it will be my next project. The PO mounted this unit and obviously didn't read the manual although it's been working for over 4 years I've owned the boat.

Also found out this charger is only good for 200 amp/hrs max and I'm at 192 so I guess it's a good thing I didn't take my batteries back and get the 105ah Stowaway's that several on this site have.

You mentioned these charges are not that great. Who makes a better or the best chargers?

Edited by - GaryB on 05/29/2012 20:08:08

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 03:42:20

I just fried both of my boat batteries by leaving them on the charger. I stopped using it. It came with the boat and I do not know the brand. I will install a Battery Tender for each battery. I use them on other batteries to maintain them and they work great and do not over charge. Some of them set for several months with the battery tender keeping them alive. I did discover that Interstate will not warranty a battery that is used in an RV. They do but the charge to replace it is higher than the cost of a new one elsewhere.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 03:51:41

Well the appeal of Xantrex is that they are serviceable at the price. I mean, you aren't looking at Sach's Fifth Ave. when you see one, more like Sears, but not quite Wal-Mart. If you want top of the line you get Charles or one of the other marine-specific, high priced chargers. The Xantrex you have will work for you though.

Since your new batteries are still under warranty, I would let the charger do its deal. Eventually it will drop from bulk charge. If it doesn't work out then look at replacing the batteries under warranty. I think you are on the right track to just let it run overnight and see what the numbers say in the morning.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 04:07:35

Back when I was fighting battery issues, this thread was very helpful: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=18907&whichpage=2

That was when I found out that teh Truecharge draws about 500 mA when it isn't plugged in to shore power. Since then I have installed a switch to kill the connection between the charger and betteries whenever we aren't plugged in, and the problem has gone away. Xantrex surprised me when they confirmed that the charger does put a draw on the batteries when it is unplugged. A more elegant fix than my switch would be a diode.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 10:43:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]
...That was when I found out that teh Truecharge draws about 500 mA when it isn't plugged in to shore power. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe that's why I've always had problems keeping my batteries topped off.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5408 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2012 : 21:16:43

It's always a good idea to check your battery current when everything is supposedly shut off. On Passage, I could have a trickle of discharge through the engine's alternator regulator or through a solar panel for example. If this were the case, I'd have to replace the items.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 04:19:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]
...That was when I found out that teh Truecharge draws about 500 mA when it isn't plugged in to shore power. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe that's why I've always had problems keeping my batteries topped off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Leave it plugged in for a day or two to get the batts charged, then unplug it and put a multimeter to it with everything on the boat turned off. I suspect you will get a 500 mA draw.

Disconnect the wire between the trucharge and teh battery and put the meter on it again. Now you will get a 0 draw. That was the final "Aha!" for me.

Since the Truecharge usually bypasses the 1-2-both switch, you can't isolate it there. A toggle switch on the negative lead will kill the truecharge though. I think mine is wired with a lead to each battery's positive and a single ground to the buss-bar. Going from memory here. I could be wrong.

The toggle switch to fix it cost a whopping $2.00. I sprung for the one with the LED to show when there was power going through it. The LED never lights up though - and yes I have tried reversing polarity through the switch. I think that the draw is not rated to the LED closely enough to be effective.

In any case a small toggle switch next to the charger or battery may solve your woes. A 5minute fix.

CAVEAT: I am not an electrician, and most things electric rank right up there with voodoo and witchcraft to me. These instructions may contradict everything in the ABYC manuals. Consult a local expert etc.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/31/2012 04:24:56

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 09:26:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]
...That was when I found out that teh Truecharge draws about 500 mA when it isn't plugged in to shore power. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Maybe that's why I've always had problems keeping my batteries topped off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Leave it plugged in for a day or two to get the batts charged, then unplug it and put a multimeter to it with everything on the boat turned off. I suspect you will get a 500 mA draw.

Disconnect the wire between the trucharge and teh battery and put the meter on it again. Now you will get a 0 draw. That was the final "Aha!" for me.

Since the Truecharge usually bypasses the 1-2-both switch, you can't isolate it there. A toggle switch on the negative lead will kill the truecharge though. I think mine is wired with a lead to each battery's positive and a single ground to the buss-bar. Going from memory here. I could be wrong.

The toggle switch to fix it cost a whopping $2.00. I sprung for the one with the LED to show when there was power going through it. The LED never lights up though - and yes I have tried reversing polarity through the switch. I think that the draw is not rated to the LED closely enough to be effective.

In any case a small toggle switch next to the charger or battery may solve your woes. A 5minute fix.

CAVEAT: I am not an electrician, and most things electric rank right up there with voodoo and witchcraft to me. These instructions may contradict everything in the ABYC manuals. Consult a local expert etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for tip Dave.

My Truecharge is wired with a green lead from one of the terminals to one battery, a balck lead fromthe second terminal to the second battery and a white lead from the negative terminal on the charger to the negative post on one battery. There is negative battery cable from battery one to battery two and then a 10 ga lead to the negative side of the buss-bar.

I've toyed with the hardwire connection of the charger from the AC side of my system and just putting a regular plug on it so I can plug it into an outlet when I want to charge the batteries. Another thought would be to just add an AC light switch and attach the charger to it. Flip the switch and you have power to the charger.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 10:15:24

Your connections sound about right. I prefer a bus bar to linking directly to one Battery or the other, but I think its really a personal choice since both batteries are connected to each other anyway. The colours seem wrong, but that is semantics. The electrons aren't picky like that.

The AC side is not what will cause the discharge. You need the switch to kill the circuit on the DC side. you want the charger running whenever you plug in. I can't think of a reason not to run it. If you aren't plugged in, you need a way to stop the drain on the DC side. Any time the charger is connected to the batteries and not plugged in to AC, it is draining the batteries. In other words, every time you flipped the AC switch to the off position, your batteries would experience draw.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2012 : 17:20:15

Thanks for the information Chris! I learned something new.

As for the wire color the PO used some wire similar to the wire used in the mast and the colors were green, black, and white. I just matched the wires on the charger end to the battery end to make sure I hooked positives to positives and negative to negative.

Can you elaborate more on what you mean about "preferring a bus bar linking directly to one battery or the other"? I think I know what you mean but I'm not sure.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2012 : 08:00:25

On Iris, I rewired the batteries a while back, and installed a bus bar in the back of the battery box. Now all negative leads go to that bar, with one lead to each battery.

It functions the same as having teh two battery negatives bonded and carrying all the load but is easier to disconnect any one negative without affecting everythign else.

Once again, I am not an electrical guy. I just sweated through this and came up with what seemed logical. It was a slow process for me, but everything seems to work now. I'm not sure if any of it is documented in the blog either since a lot of this was going on in about year 2 of ownership. I will take a look for you though. Nothing there worth talking about - you're on your own. Good luck!

Edited by - Prospector on 06/01/2012 08:07:15

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2012 : 18:58:09

Well, I went to the boat yesterday afternoon and charged the batteries for a couple of hours before going out for a couple of hours. Charger was in the 1 - 8 amp mode.

Decided to go for a night sail and while getting ready to go out I hooked up my fish finder. While adjusting the brightness I discovered I have a battery level indicator on my fish finder. It showed 12.5 volts. I sailed for a couple of hours. Lights stayed nice and bright.

When I got back to the dock I plugged the boat back in. When I woke up this morning the charger was in float mode finally.

It kind of concerns me the batteries were discharged as much as they were when the dealer told me they were part of a fresh batch that had been delivered a couple of weeks before I purchased them. Since they are deep cycles I'm counting this as the first cycle and will have to wait and see how they hold up over the long term.

I appreciate every one's input and advice on this issue and I can tell you I have learned a lot. Thanks again everyone!

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 03:56:55

I installed the two new Continental batteries yesterday. Continental dealer said that I will not need a battery tender for about a year as the batteries will hold a charge for about 4 to 5 months for the first year then slowly start to lessen the hold charge time. The removed batteries were 5 years old and I let them get cooked until water was very very low. After the installation we had a very good afternoon sail.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 04:39:15

LAte chiming in, but I'm glad everything worked out for you Gary. Batteries will lose charge if left sitting, so it doesn't surprise me too much that they were drawn down a bunch. They were fresh to your dealer, but how long did they sit on a rack in a warehouse before that?

In any case, all's well that ends. Glad it worked out!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 04:42:04

Hoawrd, I would top off those batteries adn keep an eye on them with a harbour-freight voltmeter (plugs into a cigarette lighter). Your dealer may be right, but it would be better to be sure you had enough charge to use your radio or lights in an emergency than to discover the battery had discharged.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4311 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2012 : 09:41:49

In changing out my batteries I found out one of my old betteries was a dual purpose while the other was a deep cycle.

When I took the old battery I removed last winter in to the dealer as a core a few weeks ago I noticed it had a sticker on it indicating it was manufactured in May 2006. This morning I noticed the battery I just removed from the boat a couple of weeks ago has a sticker on it from July 2006.

I guess 6 years for batteries that were not always given the best TLC isn't too bad!

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2012 : 03:45:04

Prospector, I think you are right and I will do that. Luckily, I have an amp meter on the engine panel that shows when the batteries are charged during the motor run and I usually leave it running at a fast idle when we return to the dock until the amp meter stops showing a charge rate. I may have to get two volt meters as Battery #2 is the one that supplies power to the power plugs currently in the boat.

Edited by - on

rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2012 : 21:58:22

With flooded batteries, it's entirely OK and even recommended to occasionally "boil" the electrolyte with an overvoltage charge. The two outer cells of the 6 cell battery often corrode up so it helps to occasionally dust off the cells by generating hydrogen directly on the plates. How I obtained a 12V 100 amp Xantrex charger with unlimited functions, long story.

Edited by - on

smshield28
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 14:01:16

I've had EXCELLENT luck with the Minnkota two and three bank chargers they sell at Academy. Those things have all the bells and whistles and for $160 for a three bank it's kind of hard to beat.

I bought one for a 22' sailboat two years ago and my batteries stayed crispy and full and headache free.

I bought my Catalina 25' four months ago with a West marine two bank turd of a charger. It looked fine, but has the nice feature that if the batteries are discharged enough (read, total crapshoot on whether it feels like charging them), it thinks there is no battery there and just doesn't even try to charge them.

So sometimes, full batteries, sometimes dead as a doornail.

I disconnected that $#!$@#!@#$ junk and bought another Minn Kota. Guess what? Brought my batteries right back and they are topped off and happy all the time, no problems, no bull***. Same wiring.

I'm an EE so I went through every inch of electrical on that boat trying to track down dirty connections, polarity, dirty connections, continuity, etc. Turned out that the West marine charger just sucked.

Now I have a three bank charger that keeps my two house batts happy, isolated, and my outboard starter battery happy and isolated too.

Best $160 spent on the boat IMHO.

Edited by - on

smshield28
Deckhand

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USA
15 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2012 : 14:03:47

OH, and the Minn Kota comes with fuses built into the positive leads for free as well.

I wire in breakers on my stuff for obvious reasons, but belt and suspenders is a way of life for me.

Edited by - on

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