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Inner forestay

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bobsta
Deckhand

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10 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2012 : 19:48:58

Have a 150 roller reefing Genoa - been thinking about installing an inner forestay in order to hank on a working or storm jib. Had this set up on and Irwin 30 in the '80s and loved the way she sailed in 25mph winds with one reef in the main and the working jib made for a stress free and balanced sail.

Anyone install an inner forestay on their catalina 25..?

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:02:25

You might do a search on member JimB517. He had a furler and and independent forestay on Indiscipline. He eventually eliminated the furler altogether to take better advantage of racing sails on the forestay. I would think the width of the furler drum would be a critical piece in the decision as it could interfere with the additional forestay if the standard stem fitting and masthead are utilized. I believe that is how Jim had his rigged. I guess you could add a second chainplate/eyebolt to the deck to accept a second forestay if you strengthen the forward deck.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 06/04/2012 15:11:13

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 11:04:56

I'm curious about this option, but can't think of a strong enough point to fix it to on the foredeck. Wouldn't you want to tie it into a bulkhead? The only available one is only a couple of feet forward of the mast, and way too far aft.

I'm considering a furler and keep wondering how fast or slow headsail changes really are. I'm not that excited about having a compromised sail shape when reefed and would expect to reef down from 135% to 100% fairly often (mostly because I currently have 135% and 110% headsails and switch between them often).

alex

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 12:14:12

Had a similar thread on sailnet, cut and pasted:
I had luff tape added to my hank on 75% storm jib so it will raise on my furler. The reason I chose this route was because my forward chainplate area is very tight with anchor roller in the way there was no room to attach a jack stay that wouldn't hit the furler drum. So using the storm sail is "before I leave" decision but I find I have gotten good use out of it now that the option is available. I sail single handed or with young kids and I'd much rather end up under powered than being blown over so I tend to err on the conservative side when the weather man predicts a blow. The local North Sails loft added the luff tape a strap pennant to allow the sail to easily set at the right hight for about $100.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 12:29:53

I think that the best part of having a furler is that I don't have to go forward in the conditions that might warrant a storm jib. I certainly wouldn't want to go forward in those conditions to change out a furled headsail. I just pull the string until I've shortened sail enough and voila, a storm sail appears on my furler. Yeah, I know all the issues regarding diminished sail shape but if the conditions are that bad I'll be less concerned with sail shape and more concerned with making adequate progress toward safe harbor.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 13:46:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm considering a furler and keep wondering how fast or slow headsail changes really are.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have a CDI furler and I think most will agree, it is not really designed for changing headsails. I'm not even that fond of doing it at the dock, much less in some bumpy conditions. I just roll it up and in some instances only have two or three feet of sail out. Does it perform like a storm jib, no. But I don't have to visit the foredeck either.

Edited by - Davy J on 06/04/2012 13:47:37

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 14:12:10

I know that the CDI furler has the reputation of making for difficult sail changes. The two furling systems that I'm considering are the Harken 00AL and the Alado (which Practical Sailor seems to like).

The Alado looks like it has the same headsail changing issues as the CDI, since it is more or less the same design but with aluminum foils instead of plastic. The halyards are looped through the foils. One difference is that it has two foil slots, but I don't really see a lot of value in that.

The Harken looks like it continues to use the existing halyard and is designed for easier changes, but takes much more work to install and you need to handle halyard wrap.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 14:20:06

Why not furl the storm sail on the second inner forestay? Voila.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 15:37:09

This past weekend we had some very strong winds for a C25. I had the main reefed and my 135 genoa rolled up to less than 100%. The boat was doing a constant 6.3 to 6.8. What
I'm getting at is if the boat is going about as fast as it can, Does sail shape really matter?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2012 : 19:53:45

I really don't understand why anyone would have a furler if you're looking to change headsails more than one a year or so????????? Sell the furler and buy hank-ons. The, come back here an let us know how long it takes to regret that decision.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/04/2012 19:54:46

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 15:02:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm getting at is if the boat is going about as fast as it can, Does sail shape really matter?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I asked the same question at my local loft and the answer I got seemed reasonable. He said as an emergency measure there is nothing wrong sailing with the genny partially furled. If it becomes habit forming the sail will pre-maturly "die" because there is a lot of pressure placed on the luff when it is furled to an area with no reinforcements. It will cause a significant amount of stretch in the fabric causing the sail to be "blown out" ahead of its' time.

It's really windy here - and when it's not, there's no wind at all, All or nothing. I have a 135% now and I find I'm a little over powered more often than not. I also have a drifter "gennaker" that is about 150% and is great for the few times there's not much wind to work with. When I use the drifter I just furl the 135 and "free fly" the drifter. It has grommets for hanking-on but I find the skipping the hanks is not a worry, especially because I only use the sail in under 10knts.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2012 : 20:37:54

I have a Harken Mark IV. Size 0 I believe. It has twin slots so you can have one sail up and another ready to go if you want. I took my 150 down a couple of weeks ago to add tell-tales. It took about 2 minutes to drop it by myself and get it off the boat and most of that time was just picking the sail and sheets up and getting them off the boat.

Going back up took maybe 3 or 4 minutes because I had to feed the luff tape, pull the halyard, feed a little more luff tape, pull the halyard because I left the pre-feeder at home. Using the pre-feeder I could do it alone in under 2 minutes. If you had one person to help you you could literally raise or drop a sail in less than a minute.

I'm guessing if you were racing, were familiar with this furler, and had one sail up and another started in the other slot you could do a sail change in less than a minute during racing conditions.

I highly recommend the Harkin furlers if you are considering having to make sail changes on a regular basis. To me it is so easy I wouldn't even think twice about doing it.

They are more expensive than the CDI's but you get what you pay for. As the Fram commercials used to say "Pay me now or pay me later". I am not knocking the CDI furlers at all. They are very good units but for what Bobsta and Alex are contemplating I think I'd go with the Harken to avoid having to rig an inner stay and for the ease of sail changes.

As for halyard wrap, if you install the halyard restrainer as recommended you won't have to worry about it.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 05:45:04

2 minutes to drop it, 4-6 minutes to put on a new one, all in ideal conditions. Now, imagine the bow bouncing up and down in a 25-30 knot blow and you're singlehanded. The idea of changing the headsail on a furler in bad weather simply doesn't make any sense to me. The solution to too much sail in that circumstance is to reduce sail area by rotating that drum.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 06:26:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">They are more expensive than the CDI's but you get what you pay for. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I would have liked the Harken, but in my case, I needed the CDI because of my need to lower the mast.

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Canada
59 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 07:48:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The idea of changing the headsail on a furler in bad weather simply doesn't make any sense to me. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree 100% - I have made the change to the storm sail at the mooring/anchor. I use a CDI and the sail change takes about 5min, not a big effort but not something I'd ever do under way.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 08:21:22

John and Novi:

It isn't only changing it in bad weather, it is anticipating the weather and using the appropriate sail. If I know that winds are going to be high and I'm leaving my slip or anchorage in the morning why wouldn't I switch to the appropriate sail instead of stretching out my genoa?

I haven't been sailing for too long, but every time I go out I do check the forecast and current conditions and decide if I'm going to run my 110% or 135% genoa. I've only changed headsails a couple of times while sailing, but I do it all the time in my slip.

There are three reasons that I can think of for running the correct sail:
1) A furled genoa as a smaller jib doesn't have the correct shape. It high off of the deck which increases heel unnecessarily.
2) A sail built for heavy winds (like a working jib) should be made with heavier fabric than one made for light winds (like a genoa). To make a furling sail that does both you either need to make it overly heavy or you need to replace it more often as it gets stretched out.
3) As was already mentioned sailing partially furled puts load in the sail in areas that weren't designed for it.

It sounds like a Harken furler (instead of CDI or Alado) is what I should go for if I do anticipate regular headsail changes.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 09:49:20

My bad. My basic assumption was flawed. While I certainly have sailed in less than ideal conditions and I've had to shorten sail, I never suspected that anyone would ever plan to go out in bad weather.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 09:51:46

I think it depends on what you consider bad. Higher than ideal winds for a genoa can just mean 15-20mph in my experience. I'm happy to go sailing in those conditions with the correct sails. Running the full genoa works, the boat is just heeled over more than is ideal.

Of course I spent last night in light winds and dumping rain just because racing is fun. I'd consider that bad weather for sailing, sun and 15-20mph winds to be quite nice.

Edited by - on

Novi
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 11:21:39

Alex, John,

For me having a furler and managing weather/ different headsails has been a change of "mind set". I come from a racing background in a J29 fleet where it was very common to have more than 4 or 5 head sails on board and change them often while racing. Like switching gears.

On the C25 the furler doesn't stop me from going out in "bad" (very windy) weather or "switching gears" but head sail decisions (75% vs 135%) are made before I leave the mooring. I'm not racing any more so speed is not a major issue, even though ,it's not always an easy decision; I wish I had 110%, that way I'd partially roll my 135% a lot less often.

Alex, I think your logic in choosing the Harken furler is sound. I'm not trying to be snobby but I find my CDI a bit "chintzy" but in no way hard to use. If you have the extra Boat$ for the Harken - it's a no brainer IMHO.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 14:33:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I haven't been sailing for too long, but every time I go out I do check the forecast and current conditions <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I can't tell you how many times NOAA or the forcasters have been wrong.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 15:44:55

They are wrong nearly every day where I say, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't check them. The Puget Sound is not the easiest area to predict weather for.

I also check local conditions, and trust those over what NOAA is saying.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 17:02:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 My bad. My basic assumption was flawed. While I certainly have sailed in less than ideal conditions and I've had to shorten sail, I never suspected that anyone would ever plan to go out in bad weather.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hell yes! When there is bad weather is EXACTLY when you should go out and see how all of your stuff works under those conditions. If you are only a fair weather sailor and a big one hits, you will be at a disadvantage compared to the sailor who knows what heavy weather will do and how the boat will handle it...

BTW - my neighbor who has thousands of miles under his C25 keel has an inner forestay as well as the obligatory radar unit, wind generator, three solar panels on an arch, and a few other goodies only a cruiser would love. Tricked out is not the word. This boat is amazing and I keep meaning to post pics... My bad!

John knows about the association and may have been a member once. Anyone remember Gavia Immer?

Here is a good write up on John - http://towndock.net/shippingnews/gavia-immer-an-uncommon-common-loon

sten

Edited by - redviking on 06/06/2012 17:11:16

bobsta
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 19:00:31

Ya - you know GaryB had a point. I do have a CDI furler and raise and lowering the genny twice a year is all I want to with that system... Maybe the answer is just a better furling system - one that lends itself to changing sails more easily. Cost of an inner forestay or trying to sell the CDI and buying a new Harken may be negligible cost wise... Like I said I did have a furling system and the inner forestay on my Irwin 30 years ago and it worked out well for me, but the inner forestay was already installed when I bought the boat - I have know idea what the cost of all this scheming might be...

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 22:55:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 2 minutes to drop it, 4-6 minutes to put on a new one, all in ideal conditions. Now, imagine the bow bouncing up and down in a 25-30 knot blow and you're singlehanded. The idea of changing the headsail on a furler in bad weather simply doesn't make any sense to me. The solution to too much sail in that circumstance is to reduce sail area by rotating that drum.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree completely. I'm not getting on the foredeck while out. That's why I bought a furler. If conditions worsen unexpectedly while out I will roll up some sail with the furler.

I was providing the information above using the thought process that one would change out sails before leaving the dock. While it does happen sometimes that the wind picks up while out sailing (reduce sail area with furler), normally the winds remain about the same during the day unless there are thunderstorms or a front moving through.

If the winds are blowing hard before leaving the dock one is more likely to make the sail change if they have a furler that allows a quick and easy sail change.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/06/2012 : 23:03:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 My bad. My basic assumption was flawed. While I certainly have sailed in less than ideal conditions and I've had to shorten sail, I never suspected that anyone would ever plan to go out in bad weather.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
BTW - my neighbor who has thousands of miles under his C25 keel has an inner forestay as well as the obligatory radar unit, wind generator, three solar panels on an arch, and a few other goodies only a cruiser would love. Tricked out is not the word. This boat is amazing and I keep meaning to post pics... My bad!

sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He would have to be cruiser 'cause it sits 3" lower in the water and is 2 knots slower than any other C25!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/07/2012 : 05:12:05

Well, there's "bad weather", and then there's "BAD WEATHER". Most sailors go out in the former, but most don't intentionally sail in the latter. Nobody should sail in marginal conditions if he isn't confident that he has the skills and equipment to do it. Now that I have a 35' boat that is built to cross an ocean, and 40+ years of sailing experience, I'm less intimidated by weather than when I sailed a pop top C25. Nevertheless, I don't intentionally sail in seriously foul weather, and don't know any sailors who do, but, if I'm caught in it, I'm confident that the boat and I can probably get through it. The Chesapeake Bay is home to a lot of skilled, macho, young sailors and racers, and when the conditions become too challenging, especially for the smaller boats, they postpone or cancel races. Nobody needs to prove anything. When you have enough confidence in your equipment and your experience, then sailing in bad weather is a natural progression.

A furler is more helpful with a bigger boat. A dacron sail on a 35-40' masthead-rigged boat is big and heavy and hard to fold and bag, especially when singlehanded. A furler lets you reduce sail area significantly in seconds without changing sails. For shorthanded local sailing on a bigger boat, a furler is a necessity. Sail shape isn't ideal when you furl, but, when you get caught with too much sail area up, furling the jib settles the boat down quickly and gets it under control. For a cruiser, furling is a compromise that is well worth what it costs in terms of reduced aerodynamic efficiency. A furler is less of a necessity for an inland lake sailor on a smaller boat, where the waves aren't so big, but it's like anything else. It all depends on how and where each of us uses the boat. IMO, on a big bay or for coastal cruising, a furler on a C25 is as useful as on a big boat. It's no fun changing sails on a wet, plunging foredeck in strong winds.

Edited by - on

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