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Another Cracked Rudder Question

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 07:31:14

Isn't the lower pintle supposed to be the longer one of the two, without a cotter ring hole, so you can get it into position before engaging the upper pintle. Then the cotter ring goes in the upper pintle.

Just a thought - I wonder if making the repair to the rudder shifted the stress point to a different weak spot that was there already. Strange how it broke below the lower pintle.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 10:32:24

Stinkpotter: The repair included opening up at the pintles and sanding entire edge. He said there was no internal core damage so he just rebuilt it up. And i guess this rudder was already replaced as I understand that back in 85 these rudders had wood core.

I'm really puzzled as the core seems to be solid where it cracked. I was expecting to see water saturated and rotten foam... but nothing.

I'm starting to get a feeling that he might have left the rudder in the direct sun - or maybe left it in the back of his track in last week's heat wave that we had. I don't know... but damage is done and I need to deal with the consequences.

Larry: thank you for the write up! This is becoming a tough decision. But at the end of the day, anyway I go I should get a good rudder (although I'm starting to lean towards the foam core).

I wanted to order the balanced rudder (foam core which goes for 660), but folks at CD told me that it will be 4 - 8 weeks before they ship it. Also they need to verify the price with manufacturer as they don't sell those that much. Kind of strange - but do you guys who makes those foam rudders for CD??

I think the HDPE standard rudder will be eliminated based on feedback here. Seems the chord is is not deep enough at only 12". Mine right now is 17" i think (unless i'm taking wrong measurement).

I will contact Catalina directly and I will say what they recommend. I'm actually quite curious.

I wish I could take you guys out for a beer for helping me out! This is quite a bit of $ and i want to make the right decision that twill be good for me and for future owners of this wonderful boat.

Edited by - szymek on 06/26/2012 10:42:51

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 10:45:40

I think Foss CA makes the foam core rudders that CD sells. You can contact them directly too, when I did I also got the 4-8 week response and the price was basically the same.

The IdaSailor/HDPE Bluewater rudder has the deeper chord (15") and a deeper blade and is 2" thick instead of 1.5" thick. If I were buying my rudder again (sad since I just bought it a couple of months ago) I'd go with that one. You'll get the quick turnaround and the proper rudder shape, just with the downsides of a higher cost.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 14:19:57

Check [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23022&whichpage=1"]this thread[/url].

Edited by - on

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 20:07:38

Here's some quick homework:

Here are dimension of my original rudder:

Catalina Yachts and they're asking $748 plus $150 - $200 for shipping.

Foss Foam Florida $552 plus $150 for shipping
They've sent me this drawing to confirm dimmensions if I decide to go with them:

Catalina Direct Blue Water rudder $869 plus around 65 for shipping (this quote was for standard HDPE rudder shipping, but I'm assuming this one will be similar)

Finco / Foss Foam - They don't have current site, but I will call them tomorrow on the number i got from one of the threads.

I'm leaning towards foss foam rudder as majority people seems to be quite happy with it and it seems to be best bang for the buck.

In the tech tips section there are 2 slightly different drawing - one by Steve Senter and 2nd by Brian. The rudder drawing i got from Foss Foam FL is bit bigger as well. That is just adding to my confusion. Is that ok? or if I decide to go with them should i just give them one of the drawing from tech tips.

Anyways...I will still contact foss foam in California.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/26/2012 : 20:31:40

Already another update:

Foss Foam in CA they don't have a website right now. But I found Steve Brown's number in the signature in one of the threads here. So i decided to give it a try just to see whether it's still in service. It went to his voicemail - so good sign. I did not bother leaving a message and planned on calling him tomorrow.

Guess what. Less than 30 mins went by and Steve calls me back. They have 3 rudders in stock right now! He was on the road but asked me to call back tomorrow am and he'll give me a good price and will get it shipped even tomorrow!

Steve confirmed that this is from the mold that he made up based on a rudder from one of the members on this forum here.

So just to triple check - dimensions of the rudder are the same regardless which year? I just want to get it shipped ASAP!! hahaha

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 03:58:01

My '89 Cat has the balanced rudder and while I cannot right now confirm the dimensions, the shape matches your second sketch, above. The lower rudder section that is forward 2+ " positions just under the transom on my '89. I doubt the hull dimensions/configuration changed between your '85 and my '89 but probably best to match up where those forward sections of the rudder would match up on your boat to ensure that configuration will work.

Does anybody know what the affiliation is between the Foss Foam on the east coast and the west coast ? One would think they are the same company but something in the past has me question that.

I recall the archived postings regarding the west coast Foss Foam and the making of the balanced rudder in your second sketch. At that time (last fall or so) I was all set to buy another rudder. It was when I was going for my blister repair/waterproofing job. But I put it off based on the boat shop evaluation and indcted they saw nothing really wrong with my rudder at present. I guess I was always a bit concerned because the PO had indicated he had a survey done 4 years earlier and the surveyer indicated moisture spots in the rudder.....that is now 4 + 7 yrs ago = 11 yrs ! Considering I keep my boat in freshwater all year-round and the blister repair I went thru, that was why I was considering the rudder replacement . But the boat shop waterproofed it as they completed the hull. No repairs were done to my rudder and it visibly did not show any need for repairs. So, I put off buying a new rudder for now. But I was considering the rudder from Foss Foam...as also the other choices you are wrestling with right now. So....it isn't an easy decision. But after weighing your options...it then probably comes down to going with your gut....though the wait time for a new rudder is obviously now another factor to consider....but your final decision should still be with what you feel is best for you & your boat even if it means waiting. If the rudders that are available presently are also the one you are heavily considering, then maybe it is the right choice. Just that I hate it when a time factor has to weigh in on these decisions. Anyway....Good Luck with your decision-making !!

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/27/2012 04:00:16

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 06:22:02

Something worth considering...There may be a difference in the height of the C25 rudders depending on if the boat has the transom cutout (older style) or the straight across transom (redesigned later models). On my boat, the older style with the cutout transom, my tiller projects about a 1/4" above the bottom of the cutout. I'd imagine if my rudder were put on a later model C25 without the transom cutout, the tiller would end up pointing skyward...Anyway, just a thought.

I believe the rudder mold taken from Nauti25 by Foss Foam of California was of the later style.

Edited by - dlucier on 06/27/2012 06:36:04

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 06:44:53

Don's right... My '85 had the cutout, while my new balanced rudder was designed for the later model. When I mounted the pintles, I did it so the rudder hung a little lower than designed--putting the tiller at a level that allowed me to tip it up under the traveler bar, and leaving a larger gap between the skeg on the hull and the forward step of the rudder. I figured a somewhat larger gap might make it easier to clear a lobster pot warp if it got caught there, instead of having it jam between the rudder and skeg. The hydrodyamics might not be optimal--I was fairly sure I wouldn't notice (and didn't).

Edited by - on

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 07:50:36

ahhh yes good point. My C-25 has the transom cut out. So i guess by 89 they've changed the design.

So now that the pintles are mounted bit higher, pressure will be applied bit higher than the original desing of the rudder - but i hope it's safe to assume that's ok.

Wow it was easier to choose and buy a boat then buying a rudder.

I'll ask Steve from Foss to send me the dimensions first before i commit to buying it.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 09:27:28

I talked to Steve... he doesn't have the price yet, but will get back to me later.

He took quick measurements of the actual rudder. So the distance from the very top to first notch is 31". As you can see in my sketch my is 30". So seems that there's only 1" difference. The distance to the second notch that tucks in under the boat is 9 1/2" - so i need to double check that it clears the bottom of the boat.

Do you guys think that 1" difference is ok (i mean that it will sit 1" lower than designed to be) ?? Dave mentioned that he didn't even notice the difference.

Edited by - on

Boomeroo
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Australia
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 17:48:23

I am very interested in this thread as I intend to modify my rudder to swing by cutting right where this one broke . It broke at the highest stress point ( unsupported length and change of section). Maybe some degradation of the fibre glass but also because there was no wood or extra strengthening of this critical point. The foam allows the compressive forces on the lee side to collapse the fibreglass into the foam ( wood would resist ).
These new foam ones should have extra fibreglass or a few ribs in that area . The broken one could be fixed temporarily by bolting some stainless plates either side to rejoin it .. Then consider the new one without time constrains

Edited by - on

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 19:45:52

Boomeroo: I think from safety perspective I will not attempt to fix it. I'd rather spend the weekend catching up on some other work at the boat or just relaxing with few cold ones.

The original rudder from the notch to top of the rudder is 30". New Balanced is 31". So i went to the boat this evening to see if I raise the rudder by one inch whether I will have enough clearance (transom and traveler)

This is how the tiller sits with the original rudder:

Note: bottom if tiller does not touch the transom there is about 1/8 at least of clearance.

This is how tiller sits with the rudder raised by 1":

So there is still plenty of clearance. So I think I'm good to go...

I will get all the dimensions from Steve tomorrow and I think I'm ready to get it shipped.

My pintles are both the same size (the small ones) so i think i will order the long one and tiller strap from CD.

Am I over seeing anything?? Let me know if I am.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2012 : 20:30:56

The longer bottom pintle makes it easier to mount the rudder, since you don't need to precisely align both pintles on the gudgeons simultaneously. Just make sure the upper one has a hole for a cotter pin or ring--my balanced rudder definitely wanted to float off the gudgeons.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 03:54:58

I think you'll be very pleased with the Foss balanced rudder. My original '89 model is currently in my garage as I replaced the lower gudgeon mid-season (the original was quite twisted so I chose to replace it rather than risk it breaking). A few observations that might be of interest:
<ul><li>I was preparing to drill and refill with epoxy the holes for the pintle bolts only to discover that those areas of the rudder, at least, are solid fiberglass. Good news.</li>
<li>The distance between the lower pintle and the first step in the rudder on mine was less than that required to fit over the new gudgeon with its bushing. Frustrating. CD Tech support indicated they had not encountered that issue but were not surprised, saying that when our boats were constructed, the rudder hardware was installed without use of a template or specific measurements. That is why current manufacturers are hesitant to drill the bolt holes for replacement rudder hardware. </li>
<li>The sketch above is not to scale. Note from Don's pics, the chord width is widest near the lower pintle (~17.5") and tapers to 15" at the lower end. </li></ul>

Good luck with and enjoy your new rudder!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 06:01:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by szymek
 The original rudder from the notch to top of the rudder is 30". New Balanced is 31". So i went to the boat this evening to see if I raise the rudder by one inch whether I will have enough clearance (transom and traveler)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Looking at your drawings, you have the distance from the first notch to the top of your original rudder at 30" (28" + 2") and the measurements from Foss as 32 3/4" (31" + 1 3/4"). Am I missing something?

I'm thinking the measurement that should be considered is from the skeg notch to the top of the rudder.

I don't know how accurate this drawing from the Tech Tips section is, but it has the distance from the first notch to the top of the rudder at 28.5".

I dunno, but it seems to me that between the cutout transom and a straight transom there has to be a difference of 5-6" somewhere on the rudder???

Edited by - dlucier on 06/28/2012 06:20:54

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 06:18:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 
Looking at your drawings, you have the distance from the first notch to the top of your original rudder at 30" (28" + 2") and the measurements from Foss as 32 3/4" (31" + 1 3/4"). Am I missing something?

I'm thinking the measurement that should be considered is from the skeg notch to the top of the rudder.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The sketch above of Foss Foam rudder is from FL. When i was told to contact Foss Foam i ended up contacting location in FL (not knowing that there are two companies). Folks in CA are now called Finco Fabrications (Foss Foam CA merged with Finco). Yes it is getting tad confusing. I've taken the measurement from the skeg to top of the transom, but i think I've left it at home. Damn.

Edited by - on

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 08:14:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 
I don't know how accurate this drawing from the Tech Tips section is, but it has the distance from the first notch to the top of the rudder at 28.5".

I dunno, but it seems to me that between the cutout transom and a straight transom there has to be a difference of 5-6" somewhere on the rudder???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ok I'm getting bit confused now - and started to get worried. I planned on finalizing the order with Steve this aft. The dimensions are all over the place. In tech tips (there are 2 with slight variations), foss foam FL, foss foam CA (finco fab) all have different dimensions.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 08:30:37

I wouldn't worry about the million different shapes of these things. Just check against your existing rudder to make sure that the new one will fit.

My impression is that Catalina changed the rudder shape over the years, and most of the replacement rudders have changed as well.

The whole chord length issue seems worth asking IdaSailor and CD about, so I'm going to shoot them off an email.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 09:34:41

I'm fairly certain the bottom of the boat didn't change. And since Foss (Don in CA.) used my 89 as a template, you won't have problems with the top of the transom. They put the pintles on mine because they had my original rudder to use. Since they don't have yours, you'll probably have to drill and mount them yourself. In this case, it will mount correctly and fit just fine.
I can put my hand more than halfway down the tiller and steer easily. From what I've read, that's difficult with an early rudder. Go with Foss from CA!

Edited by - NautiC25 on 06/28/2012 09:36:29

dlucier
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 11:03:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 I'm fairly certain the bottom of the boat didn't change. And since Foss (Don in CA.) used my 89 as a template, you won't have problems with the top of the transom.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, the bottom of the boat didn't change, the transom height did, but how can you be so certain Daniel won't have any problems on his '85 C25? I'm fairly certain his '85 rudder wouldn't work on your '89 boat.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 13:18:16

Here's a screen shot of the balanced rudder I made in Google SketchUp a few weeks back. It's sitting at a bit of an incline (imagine it's leaning against a bench or something). It shows you how the diagram above is not to scale. This is accurate to the drawing measurements. It has not been faired, it's a 2" thick block. If anyone wants the drawing, let me know, and I can email it to you. I just did it as an exercise to keep my CAD skills from going completely dull.

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NautiC25
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 15:27:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 I'm fairly certain the bottom of the boat didn't change. And since Foss (Don in CA.) used my 89 as a template, you won't have problems with the top of the transom.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, the bottom of the boat didn't change, the transom height did, but how can you be so certain Daniel won't have any problems on his '85 C25? I'm fairly certain his '85 rudder wouldn't work on your '89 boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You are correct. He can use my rudder, but I cannot use his. The new rudder/tiller will sit a few inches higher, but should still sit below the traveler.

Also, when mounting the newer rudder, you must twist it ~80deg. so that you can get it under the hull and align the pins.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 06/28/2012 15:30:59

szymek
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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 19:35:43

David: I think both angles on the first notch should be 90. I'm just saying based on looking at the rudder that was made for Nauti25.

************
Steve hasn't emailed me all the dimensions yet as he's been working away at the waterfront all day. Damn... but promised to email it to me tomorrow am. But when i talked to him yesterday he said that from very top to first notch is 31" and to second notch 9 1/2". So total of 40 1/2".

My distance from skeg to top of transom (inside the cutout) is 36". So... 40 1/2 (top of rudder to second notch) - 36 (transom height) - 2 (tiller width) = 2 1/2" In this case I install the rudder that second notch is 1 1/4 below the skeg and tiller sits 1 1/4 above transom. Does that make sense??? (that sort of proved my initial rough calculations that i need to raise the rudder by only about 1".

I will run over to the marina in the am to triple check the distance from skeg to top of transom.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/28/2012 : 19:55:58

If you're referring to the notch at the top forward part of the rudder, it is square, it just looks skewed in the screen shot. Remember the rudder is "leaning", so your perspective isn't straight down as in a plan view.

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